09-02-2001 10:51									#61
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Perfect timing Paul!

First, let me say "Thank You" to all of you for your support of the rating system. Many people here on this forum have contributed greatly to it's success!

Second, I truly understand that this "rating" is just a number and is really secondary to the enjoyment of Call to Power. But it is, never-the-less, still "secondary" and not "trivial" (from what I gather from the responses here). So I will continue with my "defense" of the system.

Let's use Paul's last "Monkey 1" example to help explain why Keygen's proposal would cause unfairness in the system (though it may not be intentional) . Even though Solver has already rejected Keygens proposals, I respect Keygen's thoughts and I think it is important for him (and others) to understand why this, "Let the unrated players count toward the rated players ratings in all games", proposal will cause an "imbalance" in the system.

Paul's last example:

Monkey 1 turn 189 powergraph:
1. Swissy - Jamaican
2. Paul - Russian
3. Slamp - English
(4. Max Webster - American)
(5. Robm - Roman)
6. Yeti - Chinese
(7. Duckhunter - German)
(8. Fraze - Scottish)

There are 4 rated and 4 unrated players in this game. The first three players are rated. The last four out of five are unrated. If Keygen's rule of "including all unrated players in the calculations without penalty to the unrated players", then Swissy, Paul, and Slamp's ratings would rise dramatically with no losses to anybody (other than Yeti) to balance out the rating increases. This causes an imbalance to occur in the rating "system" itself. What happens is that the more games that someone plays, the higher their rating goes. This is not intentional cheating from players, this is just what happens. It is not fair that someone's rating should increase greatly just because they have time to play 10 rated games at once, while another player only has time to play 2 games at a time. Even though those two games could be against much better players than the ten games the other player is participating in.

I hope this makes sense to you all. I'm not being unreasonably stubborn about changing the system, I just won't support a change that may imbalance the fundamental mathematical basis for the system itself.

Keygen, the statistical model for this can get quite complex. Basically, if one player's rating goes up, another player's rating MUST GO DOWN by the same exact amount. This is crucial to the integrity of the system.

Sorry, again, for the "long winded" explanation.

Quinns

	09-02-2001 03:19									#62
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Oh shut up Jon... you pompous a**! You are in no position to tell anyone to grow up. We're just talkin' here. If you don't like it --- TOUGH!

	09-02-2001 03:30									#63
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OK Steve, I will not follow you down the road you choose to travel.

Have fun with Costas!

Jon
XXXXX

	09-02-2001 03:58									#64
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Alright Jon. I'll try...

	09-02-2001 14:54									#65
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What insults are you talking about Quinns?
I do consider you my pal!
Everyone involved in this forum for some time can be considered as part of a big family. The CTP family .
Don't know why we should misjudge the words we are using here.
I don't like to insult anyone here and I really hate to go through long and exhaustive arguments and fights.
I just wanted to emphasize and deny any nips.
I can accept any reason you have given me, but the last one is indeed a crap and please don't get instulted again, it's not my intention.
Maybe my english are not so good but I use the word crap with the same meaning with nonsense only a little more emphasized.
And I am sorry if I have insulted you. It wasn't my intention.
The communication method via internet difference from face to face communication. Can't use voice tone or face expressions. Only words and smilies .


And Jon, I hope I'll never grow up!!!

	10-02-2001 23:01									#66
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ranking Teamhorses: turn 9

1. Franses-Egyptians
2. Blackice-Scottish
3. Demosthenes-Welsh
4. Arthur-Irish
5. Darth Viper-Greek
6. Quinns-Mongol

Edit: Note that Arthur replaced 420 (Irish)


[This message has been edited by Franses (edited February 12, 2001).]

	12-02-2001 01:05									#67
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Ratings updated. New Win/Loss columns added.

Klair remains in front followed closely by Mobius!

	12-02-2001 10:38									#68
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420
Darth Viper
Kralj Matjaz
Phoenixcager
berXpert
Blackice
these are the players for the youngbloods game, right now they are checking the map then we will start

	12-02-2001 12:05									#69
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"Old" game goes rated:

Fly High, we are now at turn 22.

Turn list is:

TheBirdMan
Notuncommon
Krash (sub Blackice)
(Frazer)
King Thor
(Arthur)
(Bilhq)

Frazer might go rated - he has replaced Aaginor this turn, he should have the chance to have a look on the game first.

Arthur and Bilhq has not (yet) replied if they want to be rated in this game.
[This message has been edited by TheBirdMan (edited February 12, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by TheBirdMan (edited February 12, 2001).]

	12-02-2001 21:31									#70
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I'm back... I have a lot of mails to read and a lot of forums too.

May be I made a mistake for Dutcheese (DC) turn 139. If so I apologise. I will verify asap but I crashed my HD and I'm not sure if I have any backup.

About to be rated at turn 119, I asked on January 11th which players want or not to be rated.
The Bird Man answered:
"I don't care about my position when I accept a game to be rated (see Conquer and Monkey 2).
If my position is too low - I will have to raise it or loose. That is that...."
And on January 1th, King Thor said that he wants to be rated on turn 139 and after

Solver, Quinns, I apologise for this problem and for all the work you made and you should have to make because of this. I will post again before next saturday DC ranking for turn 119, 129 and 139.
For this, I will ask again in DC mailing-list if all players agreed to the ranking system and the first turn we will use and who wants to be rated or not.
It will be the last time I will ask this question because at the end it makes me crazy !!!

PS: The first time I posted the ranking was in begin of January and nobody disagree...
[This message has been edited by slamp (edited February 12, 2001).]

	13-02-2001 10:21									#71
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Slamp,

Thanks for your explanation and comments. Dutcheese turn 119, 129, and 139 is already history as far as the ratings go. The rating changes based upon those turns will stand as is. I don't think there is any more conflict with that.

I appreciate your apologies, however, in a way, I think you might have helped to strengthen the rating system by your reporting of the Dutcheese Triple Dipper! It gave everyone a good idea of how severe one's rating could drop if you are in last place with a large number of players for three "*9 turns" in a row!


[This message has been edited by quinns (edited February 12, 2001).]

	12-02-2001 23:23									#72
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Done is done.

Let the ratings stay as they are.

	13-02-2001 00:54									#73
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Umm.. If I still have a problem with this... err.. whose name should I put when I file the lawsuit?

	13-02-2001 01:32									#74
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Hi - how do I get involved with PBEM ratings and rankings ?

(sorry - but I couldn't find a FAQ)

	13-02-2001 01:34									#75
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LOL! Solver's!

	13-02-2001 01:38									#76
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Hi Tom!

Just read the first post of this thread. If that doesn't answer your questions then post back here. Basically, you just need to state here, on this thread, what the highest A/I defeat you ever attained while playing solo CTP -- Chieftain through Deity. That's it!

Quinns

	13-02-2001 01:42									#77
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Quinns, Team Spirit is going to get rated from turn 29.
Either me or Stavros will post the exact players who will be rated.

	13-02-2001 20:59									#78
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** Notice **

Please note Aaginor's pending elimination from: R2_Islands, Conquer, Do Some PBEM, and Giant Bird, due to his resignation from all of those games. This is the first time anyone has been "eliminated" and the effect of this multiple elimination will cause his rating to drop dramatically. If anyone has any objection to Aaginor's elimination from any of these games, please state the objection now, before the ratings are recalculated on 18-FEB-2001.

Thanks,
Quinns
[This message has been edited by quinns (edited February 13, 2001).]

	16-02-2001 04:39									#79
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Quinns, Team Spirit will be rated from turn 29.
I'll post the power graph as soon as I receive my turn.

The players are:

1. Stavros
2. Franses
3. Keygen
4. Arthur
5. Maestro
6. TheBirdMan
7. Swissy
8. King Thor

All players will be rated.
Maestro have beaten the AI on Emperor.

	16-02-2001 04:44									#80
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The current standings from turn 119 in Lung's FAST! pbem are as follows;-

1. Lung! Lung! Lung! - Australians
2. Stavros - Germans
3. TheBirdMan - Romans
4. St. Jon - Indians
5. Paul - Dutch

It looks like Tweety's bold new government type - what he calls "democracy" hasn't done much for his powergraph
[This message has been edited by Lung (edited February 15, 2001).]

	18-02-2001 09:37									#81
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Team Spirit Turn 29 Power Graph
-------------------------------

1. Keygen
2. Swissy
3. TheBirdMan
4. Arthur
5. Maestro
6. Stavros
7. Franses
8. King Thor

	19-02-2001 01:46									#82
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

THIS THREAD IS --- CLOSED CLOSED CLOSED ---

Please refer to CTP Ratings (18-FEB-2001) for the latest.

	19-02-2001 03:00									#83
	Got spare money?

No it isn't