03-09-2002 20:33									#1
	no-CD patches for games Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Does Apolyton consider no-CD patches as part of warez and software piracy, i.e. are we allowed to mention it in the forums? It's just that anyone who wants a no-CD patch must be using a copy of the game with SafeDisk, i.e. they paid for the game. And one notable site that offers cracks (I'm sure you know which one I'm talking about) is legal and above board.

	03-09-2002 20:43									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I think they can be considered "legal"... Pretty much all illegally acquired games come with a no-CD patch applied already anyway, so anyone asking for a no-CD patch must have the game legally.

But I don't see how such a patch can be discussed in the first place? Especially if you're already assuming everyone knows where to get them anyway.

	03-09-2002 20:46									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I can't say what the official Poly administration policy is, but my personal policy is that anyone who wants to talk about "no-CD patches" on Poly may do so. I'm not going to start an arguement about that. If someone can't accept it, then I'm not going to feel sorry for that.

	03-09-2002 20:48									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

i personally don't care whether it's allowed or not...

i just think that all of these one-post newbies would do their own research on where to get such patches, no? i mean, google, or altavista, or what-have-you will all point to various sources...

	03-09-2002 21:00									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

unauthorized no-CD patches are illegal. i dont think messing with the .exe of the game is something allowed in the user agreement you agreed to when you bought it. asking for them here is not allowed.

just because you have an original cd doesnt mean that you paid for it. especially when you have generous friends

	03-09-2002 21:09									#6
	Suffering from ads?

Markos: not talking about the official site policy, these cracks are legal as long as you own the game. Go to that site we all know and read the disclaimer. It clearly shows under what circumstances it's legal to use the crack - as long as I do have and continue to have the original disk. Honsetly, I would use them even if illegal, because nothing bugs me more than having to insert a CD for playing .

	03-09-2002 21:13									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

actually, they have a disclaimer about utilities that allow you to backup a cd. and of course you have the right to keep a backup of cd's that you bought

they do NOT have any kind of disclaimer for the use of no-cd patches

otherwise, please quote it

	03-09-2002 21:33									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hmm, why would anyone need an utility to copy? It's my experience that my burning software creates an identical copy, with all the protection there.

quote: You are LEGALLY ALLOWED to make a personal backup of an Original Game CD as long as you are the owner of the Original Game CD.

Hmm, smells like a copy only disclaimer. But then again, license agreement prevents from reverse engineering and disassebling software, which is not done here.

	03-09-2002 22:22									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

again, backups have NOTHING to do with no-cd patches

there is nothing legal about using a cracked version of the game .exe to avoid the game from searching for it's cd-rom

	03-09-2002 22:30									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Looks like we have a +1 arguement between two mods. Aren't your PC's already high enough? Or isn't it a setup?

	03-09-2002 22:54									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by MarkG i dont think messing with the .exe of the game is something allowed in the user agreement you agreed to when you bought it. asking for them here is not allowed.

Although for the most part I agree with you and with Apolyton's anti-piracy policy, what about the CtP1 v1.21 Hack then? How do you justify having that available for download here? It messes with the .exe as well but is seen as one of the most important fanmade files for CtP1... (and I'm sure there are similar files for Civ2 and perhaps even Civ3)

	03-09-2002 22:57									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

the CTP1 v1.21 hack is on Apolyton with Activision's consent

	03-09-2002 23:06									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

Markos, that's still .exe messing. Now quote me the line of reverse agreement telling that ".exe messing" is not allowed, would you?

Oh, and really, what does Firaxis care if I have a CD in or not, if I paid for the game already ?

Then... many of the utilities could also be viewed as illegal. For instance, Gramphos's MultiTool messes with game files to modify them. My program to make Civ 3 run on 800x600 resolution uses a bug in Civ 3 code. Don't know about Grapmhos, but for instance, I emailed Firaxis before publishing my program.

	03-09-2002 23:06									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

People from Firaxis have told people to get a no-cd patch from Infograms, that is the official patch and is legal, any others are most likely ilegal.

	03-09-2002 23:09									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Solver Markos, that's still .exe messing. Now quote me the line of reverse agreement telling that ".exe messing" is not allowed, would you?

read the word "consent" again.
think about it

	03-09-2002 23:20									#16
	Got spare money?

Hmm not that I'm aware of it's meaning very well.

quote: n. Acceptance or approval of what is planned or done by another; acquiescence. See Synonyms at permission.

OK... and so what, then? It doesn't violate the stuff. Nor does the Civ 3 crack.

You know what annoys me the most? The fact that it won't use the CD. If it had, for instance, a setup option where it installs 150 MB and plays from CD, it would be, of course, OK with me. However, I find it very annoying to have all the game files on my hard drive, but having the game ask for CD just to do that "security check"... bahhh. Hell, Firaxis, please make the CD useful at least! I've only needed it once since I got the crack, to reinstall Civ 3 . No, really, I work with my own compiled data CDs, and music CDs, etc, and it's incredibly annoying to swap it if I want to play civ.

BTW, Markos, you're violating the Greek law by playing Civ 3 at all .

	03-09-2002 23:23									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Level People from Firaxis have told people to get a no-cd patch from Infograms, that is the official patch and is legal, any others are most likely ilegal.

The unjustice of it all . Infogrames basically does the same thing, yet it's legal then...

Yeah, yeah, I know .

	03-09-2002 23:35									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Solver BTW, Markos, you're violating the Greek law by playing Civ 3 at all.

I'm more than confused now. Er... Is it illegal to play Civ III in Greece?!?

	03-09-2002 23:54									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It is, because Markos's computer has electricity.

	03-09-2002 23:54									#20
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin I'm more than confused now. Er... Is it illegal to play Civ III in Greece?!?

To answer that question...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=60795

	04-09-2002 00:13									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

Technically, no-CD patches could be illegal in the USA under the DMCA, section 1201 - I think game publishers could argue that a CD-check is an "access control technology" that is illegal to circumvent (what a rotten law that is ). Wonder why they haven't gone after sites like (hmm - if I name it MarkG might just delete it, won't he? ) yet?

	04-09-2002 00:20									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Markos; if you have problems with tampered .exe's then don't you have problems with tampered files; such as those in the Modding fora?

	04-09-2002 00:32									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The problem here is many EULAs say you can't modify or back it up the content of it, but as far as I know that's NEVER held up in court because on the other hand you PAID for it and you have every right to make backups or alter it.

Likewise it's not illegal to mod an Xbox, even though the EULA says not to, but you just can't run pirated software on it.

	04-09-2002 01:08									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No CDs have to be illegal in the USA on account of the DCMA act. If, as all halfway rational people hope, SCOTUS eventually throws it out as unconstitutional, it will be legal again.

In Europe, no-CDs are perfectly legal, because it's established European practice that EULAs aren't binding - European consumer law is.

So I suggest Apolyton only enforce no cd-patch discussion bans on Americans!

	04-09-2002 01:16									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

moomin, what is European consumer law on this issue?

	04-09-2002 01:34									#26
	Got spare money?

Well, it's difficult to say, because at the moment member state laws take precedence. Here in Scandinavia, that means I as a consumer have the right to copy anything I bough for my own personal use (there are some exceptions). More importantly, I have the right to mess around with my property any way I like, even if it voids the warranty (again, there are exceptions... Installing pirate docoders on cable and satellite box-tops is actually illegal, although it has never been tried in court here in Sweden at least). I belive Brit, French and German law make similar allowances. I don't know about Southern Europe.

This happy state of affairs is about to change, though. The European Union has passed a new directive which will become member state law by December 1st which will effectively deny the consumer the right to do back-ups of software for personal use, and this will become effective in the entire Union. The directive also vaguely mentions intentions to curtail reverse engeneering of copyright protection technologies, but that part has so many exceptions as to be practically uneforceable, and is left to the member state to implement - or not - as they see fit. The Scandinavian countries have jointly decided not to pass that, at least for now.

Hope things are clearer now

	04-09-2002 01:46									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hmm I'm wondering if discussions about piracy is also some kind of support piracy and if this is the case I think this thread will be closed. Well I would like to hear a statement from an official if discussions about discussions about piracy is allowed (wow things getting rather complicated ).

	04-09-2002 02:32									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Grrr Markos; if you have problems with tampered .exe's then don't you have problems with tampered files; such as those in the Modding fora?

it's obvious that the letter of the law is not the only issue here. it's also what the companies like and dont like. well developers happen to like mods and not like no-cd patches as one is good for games and the other is bad. and we tend to agree with this view

	04-09-2002 03:09									#29
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by MarkG it's obvious that the letter of the law is not the only issue here. it's also what the companies like and dont like. well developers happen to like mods and not like no-cd patches as one is good for games and the other is bad. and we tend to agree with this view

I don't think it's as cut and dried as that. For instance, If someone barely has the minimum requirements to run Civ3, but they know that the No-CD crack will allow them to run the game a little better, they are going to buy the game and get the crack.

However, if they have to buy a new computer to run the game better, they may decide against the game.

	04-09-2002 03:10									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I still don't understand why developers don't like no-CD patches. If you want one, you've obviously installed from the CD and thus have the game legally anyway. Personally, I think you should be able to register with a serial number and d/l the crack from the developer. And the developer could automatically log each serial number so that it can't be used by more than one email address. And it's also possible to make the crack non-transferable off the hard drive (like they do with mp3s from those pay-to-download American music sites)