03-09-2002 22:31									#1
	Sneak Attack Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ever see a resource that was in enemy control, but only 2-3 cities past your cultural influence? Here is a great way to get that resource without a long, expensive, and bloody war.

First build an attack force, small but effective is what you will need for this type of attack.
I had 3 enemy cities between the edge of my cultural influence and the only rubber resource on the continent. So I prepared 6 tanks, 6 infantry, and 3 artillery.

Next, start the negotiations with the enemy civ and get a ‘Right of Passage’ (If you don’t already have this)

Then, place the attacking units next to the enemy civ’s cities. 2 Tanks, 2 Infantry, and 1 Artillery next to each city.

Then, cause the distraction.
I move 2-3 Calvary and 2 support Infantry to the enemy civ’s capital and order them to PILLAGE!
That really aggravates the civ and he will send his attack force to stop you.

Then, send in the units you have stationed next to each city.
The multiple attack of the tanks will ensure a 1 turn victory
(unless the city size is large, then beef up the attack force beforehand).

Once the cities are in your control, pop a temple and library in after you have disposed of the resistance.
And start the negotiations for peace. If the civ is resisting negotiations, just keep pillaging until they give in.

Now you have created a chain of cites that lead from your civ’s control right to the resource!
Keep the culture producing improvements coming to keep control.

This can also be used to completely devastate and enemy civ!
Just build up a larger attack force and place units next to the largest of their cites (don’t forget the capital!) and attack all at once.
This is the ‘blitz’ attack I use often to make short work (and time) of unworthy opponents.

	03-09-2002 22:37									#2
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Of course, this is a "one trick pony," to be used after you are already in a domineering position.

That violation of the Right of Passage Agreement will make it the last RoP you have. You are making it too easy: are you up to the challenge of playing at a higher level?

Last edited by Jaybe on 04-09-2002 at 00:13

	03-09-2002 22:54									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

2 tanks, 2 infantry and 1 artillery?

2 cavalry and 2 infantry enough to pillage freely by the capital region?

... Noob.

Last edited by XOR on 03-09-2002 at 23:01

	04-09-2002 00:05									#4
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You need a big tech lead on the AI for this. Easy on lower levels, harder on deity.

	04-09-2002 01:23									#5
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And you need to be brainless to totally lose your every posibility of having something so strategically usefull as a RoP.

	04-09-2002 01:39									#6
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quote: Originally posted by XOR And you need to be brainless to totally lose your every posibility of having something so strategically usefull as a RoP.

This is not correct. I know of many times where the RoP is of no value. In fact I do not use them very often. If you are at war with your neighbors I do not need, nor will I get any RoP's. If your land mass only has a few civs, you do not need to worry about RoP. If you you wish to say it may be useful to leave tha door open, thats cool. It may not always be a mistake though.

	04-09-2002 01:52									#7
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Using ROP for this type of attack is a complete waste. ROP should be used either to attack a not very accessible enemy, or to deal a devastating blow to a very powerful enemy.

	04-09-2002 03:53									#8
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ROP rape is an exploit, plain and simple. The rep damage is not a sufficient penalty.

The only use I have seen that I thought acceptable (and creative) was a recent game described by Arrian, where he used an ROP to poise massive troop concentrations next to each of an AI civ's major cities, thus creating a "Sword of Damocles" threat.

Of course, the AI civ suicided anyway, declaring war on him. He then went psycho on the AI civ, but it was justified.

	04-09-2002 06:28									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus ROP rape is an exploit, plain and simple. The rep damage is not a sufficient penalty. The only use I have seen that I thought acceptable (and creative) was a recent game described by Arrian, where he used an ROP to poise massive troop concentrations next to each of an AI civ's major cities, thus creating a "Sword of Damocles" threat. Of course, the AI civ suicided anyway, declaring war on him. He then went psycho on the AI civ, but it was justified.

How is that any different? Is it not still just an exploit? I am not to fond of how the MPP and RoP is handled. It seems to lead to too many free for alls or gang tackles. I made peace when I was about to stop playing and made an MPP with USA against Germany as I could not get to them and was tired of hearing from them. After 6000 years of all civs warring with me that MPP led to strange pairings. USA war with X, after that X signs a trade embargo with USA against me. That stuff, makes no sense. I could have done that stuff any time as I had techs and cash, but is seems unfair. I would like to see a serious rethinking and restriction of the way they are made. At least you could force them to accept peace in Civ2 if you had the UN. The wackyness of begging for peace and paying a tribute only to sign an MPP with a civ that is at war with me, is nuts.

	04-09-2002 06:48									#10
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Nope, not an exploit. There's a long history of powerful nations demanding the right to install military bases in either vanquished or lesser nations.

If the powerful used those to launch unprovoked invasions, world opinion would argue against their validity.

If the occupied nation, however, chose to declare war without meaningful provocation, it is the stronger nation's right to impose their will.

As to the bewildering politics of the late game... look at RL.

	04-09-2002 08:46									#11
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I understand all of that, but it would seem an exploit, since the AI does not know how to use it or avoid it. The human can use that tactic with out being in a over whelming position. That is even if you could not dictacte term, you can make RoP's if on good terms. The provocation is so easliy set up. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems unfair to use as a regular scheme.

	04-09-2002 16:43									#12
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I stay away from the ROP attack. It cheapens the victory for me.

	04-09-2002 21:11									#13
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My use of the RoP I had with Greece in the game Theseus mentioned was not designed to result in the conquest of Greece. It was designed to result in the speedy destruction of Greece should they attack me.

I have played enough CivIII to know that I was going to be sneak attacked by the AI at some point, despite (or perhaps because of) my huge advantage in power, wealth and technology. I just knew it. So I put 40 Tanks, several cavalries, and several infantries in their territory via out RoP agreement and waited. Sure enough, they eventually sneak attacked me, violating out RoP agreement. I then proceeded to butcher them. The only thing my use of the RoP changed was the number of turns it took me to destroy them. I lost 3... or was it 4?... units. I think that's different from using a RoP to put your units in place and then start a war of conquest.

-Arrian

	05-09-2002 15:03									#14
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 This is not correct. I know of many times where the RoP is of no value. In fact I do not use them very often. If you are at war with your neighbors I do not need, nor will I get any RoP's. If your land mass only has a few civs, you do not need to worry about RoP. If you you wish to say it may be useful to leave tha door open, thats cool. It may not always be a mistake though.

If you attack someone during an RoP you will not be able to get an RoP with any other Civ for the rest of the game. Therefore, losing the chance to get the RoPs in the times when they are or may be of a lot of strategical value.

	05-09-2002 20:43									#15
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XOR, not sure why you repeat a well known fact, namely that violation of an RoP will prevent getting a new one. I do not violate them, I was only pointing out that there could be circumstances that it is immaterial and therefore not brainless, not that it was a great idea. Please be sure you have a comprehension of the premise be for you respond.

	06-09-2002 21:29									#16
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My biggest ROP exploit was in my recent game again the Persians. In that game, I moved 210 MAs in attack positions, took 15 Persian cities in the first turn, and destroyed at least 60MIs in the process.

	07-09-2002 15:52									#17
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If the RoP has been going for 15 turns and the AI starts getting snooty with you I say station troops in the hills and mountains of his territory. If he chooses not to extend the RoP it's his funeral. I don't rape during RoP but when it expires then that's just the AI's problem. The troop buildup should have been enough of an indication that he plays by my rules or I bulldoze his places of worship.

	07-09-2002 19:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus ROP rape is an exploit, plain and simple. The rep damage is not a sufficient penalty.

Yep. A lamers trick, and much loved by AI scum like Cathy and Otto.

	07-09-2002 22:35									#19
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I agree it needs to have a serious penalty. Maybe long term rioting or a few cities revolting and switching sides.

	09-09-2002 20:32									#20
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Hmmph. Unless I do the ROP betrayal thing before about the Middle Ages, all the AI tend to betray each other anyway and instantly ROPs are impossible for me (somehow, by extension), despite me having done nothing wrong.

Damn those AIs.

	09-09-2002 21:22									#21
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The game seems to consider units in their country as a ROP violation if they are already in the country when the war is declared.

	09-09-2002 22:41									#22
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Unless I do the ROP betrayal thing before about the Middle Ages, all the AI tend to betray each other anyway and instantly ROPs are impossible for me (somehow, by extension), despite me having done nothing wrong.

Sure, the AI's betray each other, but that doesn't affect your ability to get ROP's, or at least it doesn't for me. I've never betrayed a ROP, and have never had trouble getting one unless with an old foe with whom terrible and large-scale conflict has occurred.

	10-09-2002 19:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless My biggest ROP exploit was in my recent game again the Persians. In that game, I moved 210 MAs in attack positions, took 15 Persian cities in the first turn, and destroyed at least 60MIs in the process.

With 210 Modern Armour units why bother using the ROP deception??

I hate to be around you when you eat nuts do you open them witha .45? lol


i don't think i have ever built that many in one go!

	10-09-2002 20:16									#24
	Re: Sneak Attack Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by DellBoyRR5 Then, place the attacking units next to the enemy civ’s cities. 2 Tanks, 2 Infantry, and 1 Artillery next to each city.

I understand the 2 tanks and 2 infantries (though I find it risky to use only 4 units, unless the AI is very weak), but may I ask: WTH are you doing with that one lousy artillery?

	10-09-2002 20:20									#25
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in my current game on the world map, i used an RoP with babylon to send cavalry up through russia's belly, allowing me to take 5 cities on the first turn (3 on my front, 2 on the babylonian).

	10-09-2002 21:02									#26
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Using an RoPwith A to attack is B is fine, using it to attack A is not.

	11-09-2002 00:21									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Lucarse With 210 Modern Armour units why bother using the ROP deception?? I hate to be around you when you eat nuts do you open them witha .45? lol i don't think i have ever built that many in one go!

That AI Civ, the Persians, has 5 ICBMs and is located on a remote continent. I want to take all of their major cities in turn 1 and not give them any chance of counterattacking. Also, their cities are guarded by 4 MIs on average. Furthermore, I want to keep the cities I captured so I need sufficient reserve force to quell resistors.

In the end, I managed to take 15 cities in turn 1, destroyed all their ICBMs and about 60 MIs, and lost about 70 MAs during the process. In conclusion, 210 MAs are not such an overwhelming force.

	11-09-2002 01:27									#28
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I would agree that the penalty for RoP violations as it is at this point is incredibly light. It would be more of a deterrant if the other AI civs considered it an act akin to (if not quite as severe) as the use of nuclear weapons, and they would have chance of spontaneously declaring war on the treaty-breaker. If there were worse penalties for exploiting a RoP then it wouldn't be such a big deal.