04-09-2002 04:45									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Lincoln was certainly more friendly to the abolitionist cause than some Neo-Confederates would paint him to be.

Lincoln was far more concerned with preserving the Union than anything else, even slavery.

So basically, he was more interested in maintaining a country than addressing the violation of civil liberties. Not that the CSA was better in that regard, of course, but it doesn't paint a good picture of Lincoln.

	04-09-2002 04:49									#32
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick This thread has its roots in another in which some **** labeled the South as evil.

"Two wrongs don't..."

quote: So basically, he was more interested in maintaining a country than addressing the violation of civil liberties. Not that the CSA was better in that regard, of course, but it doesn't paint a good picture of Lincoln.

That's a interesting idea. The South felt no qualms about violating the Civil Liberties of Free Blacks in the North (under the Fugitive Slave Act, which they rammed down the throat of Congress), but but biatched and moaned when they were expected to follow Federal Laws.

	04-09-2002 04:53									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: That's a interesting idea. The South felt no qualms about violating the Civil Liberties of Free Blacks in the North (under the Fugitive Slave Act, which they rammed down the throat of Congress), but but biatched and moaned when they were expected to follow Federal Laws.

Indeed, and I'm not going to defend the slavery policies of the CSA any more than I'll defend Lincoln. That doesn't mean I don't agree with the concept of secession - I do, I just feel both sides were morally in the wrong on the issue of slavery. The CSA was wrong for having it, and Lincoln was wrong for putting the Union ahead of individual liberty.

	04-09-2002 04:58									#34
	Get a bigger avatar today!

for those George Bush bashers, what about the antics of King Abe? Who was not of the evil South I might add.

************************************

Lincoln now took decisive measures to win the war. No American president had ever faced such a crisis, and Lincoln had to find for himself the necessary powers by which he could pursue the war and uphold his oath to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitution of the United States. Recognizing the problem, Lincoln said, "It became necessary for me to choose whether, using only the existing means, agencies, and processes which Congress had provided, I should let the Government fall at once into ruin or whether, availing myself of the broader powers conferred by the Constitution in cases of insurrection, I would make an effort to save it." Lincoln found the necessary powers in the constitutional clause making him "Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several states." He told some visitors to the White House, "As commander in chief in time of war, I suppose I have a right to take any measure which may subdue the enemy."

Using this power, Lincoln took a number of vital steps before Congress convened. Besides summoning the militia, he ordered a blockade of the Confederacy's ports, expanded the regular army beyond its legal limit, directed government expenditures in advance of congressional appropriations, and suspended the legal right of habeas corpus. The suspension of this constitutional guarantee, by which a person could not be imprisoned indefinitely without being charged with some specific crime, aroused much opposition throughout the country. Although Lincoln himself made no concentrated effort to suppress political opposition, which at times was extremely vocal, the repeal of habeas corpus enabled overzealous civil and military authorities to imprison thousands of people who were vocal in their opposition to the war against the South.

During the war, in the case Ex parte Merryman, Chief Justice Taney ordered Lincoln to grant a writ of habeas corpus to a Southern agitator who had been arbitrarily jailed by military authorities in Maryland. Lincoln ignored the order. After the war, in the case Ex parte Milligan, in an opinion written by David Davis, the Supreme Court ruled that a president could not suspend habeas corpus without the consent of Congress.

	04-09-2002 05:13									#35
	Increase Your PM Length

Thought I'd look in. You found MrFun. Staunch Lincoln supporter.

	04-09-2002 05:26									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Another forgotten fact of history is how Europeans flocked to the North during the war. So we can blame them for the South's defeat.

It is also not widely known how Lincoln raped native Americans to fuel his war effort.

***************

The Civil War stimulated industry and agriculture in the North and West. The Union grew at a rapid rate. Between 1861 and 1865, 800,000 Europeans immigrated to the North, and 300,000 emigrants traveled west to settle in California and Oregon. To promote settlement, Lincoln signed three important acts in 1862. The Homestead Act offered settlers 65 hectares (160 acres) of Western land each (see Homestead Laws). The settler had only to reside on and use the land for five years and pay a nominal fee to the government. The Morrill Act gave the states free land to establish agricultural and mechanical colleges. The Pacific Railway Act incorporated the Union Pacific and Central Pacific railroads for the construction of a transcontinental railroad.

*******

After the war Grant sent a lot of his unemployed officers to ethnically cleanse the land.

	04-09-2002 05:44									#37
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Wow, I actually agree with BOTH jimmytrick AND slowwhand in the SAME thread

Since when have you Texans had a problem pretending that Lincoln was Evil and Robert E. Lee didn't betray his country?

	04-09-2002 05:45									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah, but since when have I ever agreed with jimmytrick and slowwhand on anything?

	04-09-2002 05:46									#39
	Got spare money?

And by the way, family is far more important than country.

	04-09-2002 05:49									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Since when have you Texans had a problem pretending that Lincoln was Evil and Robert E. Lee didn't betray his country?

It's not a matter of pretending, it's a thorough understanding after study, Limpd1ck.

	04-09-2002 05:52									#41
	Support Apolyton

Yeah Lee was always against slavery. He simply couldn't bear to invade his home. To most (if not all) Americans Lee is considered an honorable man.

	04-09-2002 06:04									#42
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And by the way, family is far more important than country.

Your family can't keep you from being enslaved by a foreign power.

Certainly his family was important. However I am pretty sure that his stated reasons were mostly regarding loyality to Virginia. He did loose Arlington after all so he did a lot of damage to his family by picking the side that lost.

	04-09-2002 06:06									#43
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand It's not a matter of pretending, it's a thorough understanding after study, Limpd1ck.

I see, you get an erection when you think about Texas. Perhaps that could explain your rant.

It is pretending. Lincoln was not evil. Lee's did betray the US which was his country.

	04-09-2002 06:07									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Way to rock and fire, Imran.
The Big E is somehow under the deranged state of mind that the South was rich, and all families had slaves all over the place.

	04-09-2002 06:15									#45
	Increase Your PM Length

If Lee betrayed his country so did Washington, Franklin, Jefferson and Mel Gibson.

	04-09-2002 06:18									#46
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: The Big E is somehow under the deranged state of mind that the South was rich, and all families had slaves all over the place.

Come on, the Big E is the nickname for the USS Enterprise, one of the most famous ships in the USN...can't believe you'd mistake the two

jimmy,

Of course, the vital difference is that Lee lost, and since might makes right, Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson were right and Lee was wrong. Like, duh

	04-09-2002 06:20									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Generally, Lee is not painted as evil. In school, we learned that he was either pretty honorable and heroic (mainly because he could do so well with his ragtag army) or an alright historical figure though far from evil. Lincoln varies in my experience. Some love him as one of the best presidents while a small minority tends to not like him for one of two distinct reasons... some people say he was worthy of impeachment several times over while others say that he was just a bastard who didnt give a damn about the slaves and only did the emancipation (though not in Union states) so that he could prevent Britain from supporting the south.


thanks

	04-09-2002 06:23									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Actually Lincoln was opposed to slavery long before the war.

	04-09-2002 06:34									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Say what you want about their beliefs, but the fact is Lincoln's actions were far more beneficial to the cause of freeing the slaves then Lee's. Had lee succeded, Slavery would have remained in the south.

	04-09-2002 06:38									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

for a while

it was a dying institution even there

Jon Miler

	04-09-2002 06:43									#51
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Say what you want about their beliefs, but the fact is Lincoln's actions were far more beneficial to the cause of freeing the slaves then Lee's. Had lee succeded, Slavery would have remained in the south.

You are just not paying attention. Lee tried to get the CSA to free the slaves. If he had suceeded the South would have probably gained its freedom.

	04-09-2002 06:59									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Thought I'd look in. You found MrFun. Staunch Lincoln supporter.

One should not present either side as simple, one-dimensional, archetype dispicable villains, or virtuous heroes.

Both sides of the Civil War involved imperfect humans; plain and simple.

And one more point -- the history of the Civil War seems to have run against the usual pattern of the victor completely dominating the writing of the Civil War's history.

It has been the losers of the Civil War who gained a powerful influence in writing its history since the 1920s.
For that reason, people today, still worship the Confederate flag, and still believe that the Civil War was fought over anything BUT slavery.

	04-09-2002 07:03									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If you think that the War was fought over slavery and slavery alone you are ignorant.

OTOH, if not for slavery the war wouldn't have been fought.

	04-09-2002 07:04									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: and still believe that the Civil War was fought over anything BUT slavery.

Or maybe they believe that because it is the truth. Slavery was certainly a factor in the war, but so was state rights, economic concerns and any number of other things. You seem to be the one pushing a simple, one-dimensional view here...

	04-09-2002 07:08									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Slavery was the central issue that threatened to tear the nation apart -- all you have to do, is read how the western territories and the country's expansion, was tied to the issue of slavery.

Also, read primary sources where arguments raged back and forth on restricting slavery, or for expanding slavery.

	04-09-2002 07:13									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, that is partially correct. The only thing is you refer to the nation tearing apart thing. The north and south had very different ideas about states rights versus federal power. These differences manifested themselves both before and after the war on a wide variety of issues and still is a common point of contention today.

Slavery was simply an issue that couldn't be peacefully resolved. Slavery would have died without the war of course.

	04-09-2002 07:21									#57
	Increase Your PM Length

It could also be argued that slavery itself was just one aspect of the conflict between the economic systems of the agricultural South and the industrial North. The Southern states were very interested in maintaining their way of life; the continuation of slavery was just one piece in the puzzle.

However, I'm sure you won't believe any of this, Mr. Fun. You've bought into the mistaken idea that slavery is the central issue in American history and therefore has to be the real cause for the Civil War, among other things. You have the right to believe this, but I think that it is a rather narrow view of American history.

	04-09-2002 07:32									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick If Lee betrayed his country so did Washington, Franklin, Jefferson and Mel Gibson.

Since when did Mel betray the US or Australia?

Washinton, Franklyn and Jefferson knew that they were betraying Britain. They just didn't care.

You HAVE to win if you are going to betray your country. They did. Lee didn't.

	04-09-2002 07:35									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Way to rock and fire, Imran. The Big E is somehow under the deranged state of mind that the South was rich, and all families had slaves all over the place.

I see you not only can't respond in a civil manner you make up my position as well. Well I guess thats the only chance you have to win an arguement with me. You just doing your best I suppose. You can't really help it not being enough.

	04-09-2002 07:35									#60
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Or maybe they believe that because it is the truth. Slavery was certainly a factor in the war,

by far the biggest factor

quote: but so was state rights,

yes, the "right" to own slaves

quote: economic concerns

the economics of slavery

quote: You seem to be the one pushing a simple, one-dimensional view here...

I would say you seem to be the one pushing a one-dimensional view of neoconfederate apologism.