04-09-2002 07:39									#61
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick You are just not paying attention. Lee tried to get the CSA to free the slaves. If he had suceeded the South would have probably gained its freedom.

If he had succeeded in that the CSA would have rejoined the US in all probability. Slavery was by far the biggest issue. Yes I know the Texans don't like me saying that but it remains true. Without slavery there would never have been a CSA.

	04-09-2002 07:40									#62
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Another forgotten fact of history is how Europeans flocked to the North during the war. So we can blame them for the South's defeat.

That Europeans are far more enlightened than southerners is well established fact.

	04-09-2002 07:44									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Or maybe they believe that because it is the truth. Slavery was certainly a factor in the war, but so was state rights, economic concerns and any number of other things. You seem to be the one pushing a simple, one-dimensional view here...

Slavery was by far the primary factor. The states rights issues were almost entirely about slavery as can be seen in the what the South said. The economic concerns again were mostly slave economics. The value of the slaves was a major issue. Most of those 'any number of things' were either minor issues of little consequence or were strongly related or directly related to slavery.

	04-09-2002 07:45									#64
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Ethel, I saw Mel Gibson betray his county, England, in "The Patriot".

You need to watch more movies to broaden your education.

And, btw, he did it twice, betraying England again in "Braveheart".

	04-09-2002 07:45									#65
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Ethel, I saw Mel Gibson betray his county, England, in "The Patriot". You need to watch more movies to broaden your education. And, btw, he did it twice, betraying England again in "Braveheart".

Gibson's an Australian. Australia hasn't been part of England for quite awhile now.

	04-09-2002 07:53									#66
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I can see this is going over your head. His characters in the movies were English subjects. Get it. Oh, never mind.

	04-09-2002 07:57									#67
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Some of the posters here have reminded me of a favorite quote from "The Simpsons"...

quote: Proctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War? Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter-- Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery. Apu: Slavery it is, sir.

Have to love that quality American education...

	04-09-2002 08:01									#68
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick His characters in the movies were English subjects. Get it. Oh, never mind.

Hardy har har, your wit is astounding. Next time you make a joke, be sure to give us fair warning so we can be sure to avoid it.

	04-09-2002 08:04									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Slavery was by far the primary factor. The states rights issues were almost entirely about slavery as can be seen in the what the South said. The economic concerns again were mostly slave economics. The value of the slaves was a major issue. Most of those 'any number of things' were either minor issues of little consequence or were strongly related or directly related to slavery.

Ethel, I don't think these guys are aware at the large number of competent historians who have consistently argued that slavery was the central issue that eventually brought about the Civil War.
This is not a narrow view, when you take into consideration the other issues, while bearing in mind that the issue of slavery was the central issue.

Read primary sources, and read good, thorough, secondary sources of both sides; the historians that support your argument, and the historians that support my argument.

	04-09-2002 08:04									#70
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Lee, who enslaved free blacks and shipped 'em South during his invasion of Maryland, and who massacred surrendering blacks, certainly was a viscious bastard. He was not simply a good person caught between his state and his country.

quote: Long before Lincoln acted, Lee argued with the CSA government that the slaves must be freed.

Actually, he argued that, to increase the Confederate armies' manpower, slaves who'd fight for the CSA should be freed.

quote: pretending that Lincoln was Evil

Pretending?

How can a person who impoverished farmers through industrial protectionism (and caused the death of over a million people in enforcing these policies), crushed worker freedoms by using federal troops to break strikes, slaughtered Amerindians, imprisoned those who disagreed with his policies, or enslaved hundreds of thousands with conscription possibly not be considered evil?

	04-09-2002 08:05									#71
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Ethel, I saw Mel Gibson betray his county, England, in "The Patriot". You need to watch more movies to broaden your education. And, btw, he did it twice, betraying England again in "Braveheart".

He is a US citizen so he only the character betrayed England. Yes I should watch it. I have it on DVD. Since Christmas. I still haven't watched it.

In Braveheart there was no betrayal. England was trying to complete a conquest. That is not the same as a revolt against one's own country. In my oppinion he would have had to side with England to betray his country in that movie.

Of course as an Irish-American I must always side against England in any dispute where the US isn't involved on England's side.

	04-09-2002 08:12									#72
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Okay loinburger, I will adopt the following system.

-Green is a low risk of joking.

-Blue is a general joking risk, and officials are asked to review and update emergency response procedures.

-Yellow is an "elevated condition," meaning there is a significant risk of joking. Increased surveillance of critical locations and implementation of some emergency response plans are called for.

-Orange signifies a high risk of joking, meaning the forum nazis should coordinate security efforts with armed forces or law enforcement agencies and take additional precautions at public events.

-Red means a "severe risk" of joking and may require the positioning of specially trained teams, closing of public forums, facilities and monitoring of transportation systems.

	04-09-2002 08:12									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Pretending? How can a person who impoverished farmers through industrial protectionism (and caused the death of over a million people in enforcing these policies), crushed worker freedoms by using federal troops to break strikes, slaughtered Amerindians, imprisoned those who disagreed with his policies, or enslaved hundreds of thousands with conscription possibly not be considered evil?

The same way few people think Washington was evil.

A million? You will need to justify that claim. No fair adding the Civil War casualties in or blaming him for bad weather.

Conscription isn't slavery. I am sure you disagree but that is a personal definition and I am not beholden to your own secret dictionary. Nor the Libertarian dictionary. If you quote the Cato Institute I will laugh.

	04-09-2002 08:12									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Pretending? How can a person who impoverished farmers through industrial protectionism (and caused the death of over a million people in enforcing these policies), crushed worker freedoms by using federal troops to break strikes, slaughtered Amerindians, imprisoned those who disagreed with his policies, or enslaved hundreds of thousands with conscription possibly not be considered evil?

Actually, many historians argue that Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus did not have a great, negative impact on freedom of speech, or political campaigning of Democrats, with one famous exception.

You're exaggerating Lincoln's war-time policies.
Read "The Fate of Liberty--Abraham Lincoln and Civil Liberties" by Mark E. Neely, Jr.

He argues that it was more of state and local corruption by overly zealous Northern officers, and not Lincoln himself.
Even Seward, who sought to exert great power through this policy, could not live up to his harsh words, due to constant reviews of appeal cases by some of those arrested.

	04-09-2002 08:25									#75
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quote: The same way few people think Washington was evil.

Huh?

FYI, I think he was evil..

quote: A million? You will need to justify that claim. No fair adding the Civil War casualties in or blaming him for bad weather.

Why is this "unfair"?

quote: Conscription isn't slavery.

Then tell me what you consider to be slavery.

quote: Nor the Libertarian dictionary. If you quote the Cato Institute I will laugh.

I don't think you have a grasp on my political preferences yet.

quote: Actually, many historians argue that Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus did not have a great, negative impact on freedom of speech, or political campaigning of Democrats, with one famous exception.

He took 30,000 political prisoners. Given the population at the time, you don't consider that a great impact?

quote: You're exaggerating Lincoln's war-time policies. Read "The Fate of Liberty--Abraham Lincoln and Civil Liberties" by Mark E. Neely, Jr.

Do you have a link?

	04-09-2002 08:28									#76
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quote: One should not present either side as simple, one-dimensional, archetype dispicable villains, or virtuous heroes.

But you constantly present one side or the other, in whatever debate you are involved in, in one-dimensional terms. Lincoln and the Civil War are no different.

And yes, slavery was the most important issue, but you can't understand the Civil War if you don't realize that the economic issue of tariffs and political ideals of states' rights (which contrary to those who have not adequately studied American history doesn't simply relate to slavery... in fact the first time states' rights was brought up was in the case of Freedom of Speech against the 'Alien and Sedition Acts').

	04-09-2002 08:33									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo He took 30,000 political prisoners. Given the population at the time, you don't consider that a great impact? Do you have a link?

The author explains that 19th century record-keeping was horrible compared to later standards, so there are no complete accurate statistics.

Yes, the author does agree that 15,000++ people were arrested due to Lincoln's controversial policies.

Yes, a number of those people probably should not have been arrested, but that is due more to local and state level corruption by over zealous officers.

Lincoln personally reviewed a number of cases when he had the time, which was already strained by his other duties as war-time president.

Not to mention also, that the Democratic party was allowed to continue campaigning during the Civil War, and that many newspaper offices spoke against Lincoln's policies without being shut down.


A link? There's this old-fashioned institution called a library; one that might be in your local area.

If I find a link, I will place it here though.

	04-09-2002 08:35									#78
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rambo, who do you think is not evil?

	04-09-2002 08:36									#79
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What's scary is that these sick ultra-right wing conservatives believe this BS...

	04-09-2002 08:37									#80
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Maybe because this 'BS' may have been true? No one is saying it is definite, but that it might have been possible. Is that so hard to believe?

	04-09-2002 08:40									#81
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Isn't it terrific how Republicans say to the general public, "We're the party of Lincoln," and then behind closed doors they foam about how he was such an evil bastard?

Ergo Republicans must be evil bastards.

	04-09-2002 08:40									#82
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Maybe from a certain point of view, I guess ... I'm sure Lee liked blacks more. But I doubt it was anything more than the respect a man has for his dog.

I guess you sickos are forgetting that they were SLAVESSS.... SUB HUMAN.... TREATED LIKE ANIMALSS.... SOLD LIKE COMMODITIES....

Next time you idiots are going to support a stupid troll idea, at least say it outloud to hear how UTTERLY STUPID it sounds.

May god have mercy on your soulss.... (you know you did something really wrong when an atheist tells you this!)

	04-09-2002 08:41									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Huh? FYI, I think he was evil..

Well at least I allready had a suspicion as to what kind of mind you have.

quote: Why is this "unfair"?

Because its not related to your claim. The South started the War and that makes THEM responsible for the deaths in any case.

quote: Then tell me what you consider to be slavery.

You can't buy or sell conscripted soldiers.

quote: I don't think you have a grasp on my political preferences yet.

Bets? Do really think I picked those out by accident?

I suppose I could be mixing you up with someone else that is a Libertarian and maybe you are an anarchist. In which case there is no capacity for reason in you. Anarchy can only lead to some hardcase taking over. Its not a viable system. Even more brain dead than extreme Libertarianism.

I am still waiting for those numbers by the way. The War deaths are usually given as around 600,000 and as I pointed out that number is the responsibility of the people that started the war not the people that ended it.

	04-09-2002 08:43									#84
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quote: I guess you sickos are forgetting that they were SLAVESSS.... SUB HUMAN.... TREATED LIKE ANIMALSS.... SOLD LIKE COMMODITIES....

Which is basically how Lincoln thought of them.... do you have a point or are you just being a stupid troll?

quote: Isn't it terrific how Republicans say to the general public, "We're the party of Lincoln," and then behind closed doors they foam about how he was such an evil bastard?

Or rather can it mean that some Republicans are more objective and can say that people in their own party have done wrong, unlike the Democrats who believe that God has made their **** not stink.

	04-09-2002 08:44									#85
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The Republicans of that era would be the Democrats of today. Comparing the neo-fascist right wing organization known as the GOP to the Republicans of the mid to late 19th century is false. They share little more than a name.

	04-09-2002 08:45									#86
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quote: Yes, a number of those people probably should not have been arrested, but that is due more to local and state level corruption by over zealous officers.

That's because Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. When he removed legal protections citizens had, he gave local authority the power to do whatever they wanted.

quote: A link? There's this old-fashioned institution called a library; one that might be in your local area.

It's almost 11 PM here, you know.

	04-09-2002 08:48									#87
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If you think that the Republicans are neo-fascists you would pee your pants at first glance of a real fascists, you whinny.

	04-09-2002 08:49									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Maybe because this 'BS' may have been true? No one is saying it is definite, but that it might have been possible. Is that so hard to believe?

Yes. I have looked into it. The Civil War was about Slavery to a degree that amazed me when I looked at sources from that time and not modern revisionist history.

Yes States Rights did first come up over the Alien and Sedition Acts. It may also be the last time that State Rights were brought up in defense of human rights instead to squash human rights as has so often been the case.

Well it was involved in the helmet laws at one time but I don't think Senator Alan Cranston was expounding about State Rights when he fought successfully against the Carter Administration regarding helmet laws. He just did some good politicking got things changed. For a while anyway. He simply got the Federal laws amended.

	04-09-2002 08:50									#89
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I'm not going to debate what Lincoln might have thought or said about them. Actions speak louder than words *cough* Emancipation Proclamation *cough*

Regardless how freeing the slaves was in Lincolns favor strategically, he still did it.

You should show some respect for the man who kept the United States from being split into a collection of splinter faction states, and the man that paved the way for civil rights equality. But I guess I can't expect much more from someone that thinks terrorism is justified... I don't understand you Imran. If you were in the South circo pre-1860, the color of your skin would no doubt make you a slave. Wake up and smell what you're shoveling.

	04-09-2002 08:51									#90
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick If you think that the Republicans are neo-fascists you would pee your pants at first glance of a real fascists, you whinny.

not quite, Adolf... I would shoot them on sight just like my Serbian ancestors and family did.