05-09-2002 06:27									#61
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Just because Congress says it can do something doesn't mean that they can. From my reading of the Constitution, Congress can declare war, and Congress can control funding, but outside of that they can't limit the prosecution of the war. Sure, they could say that "If you go beyond this limit we will cut off funding" or "If you don't end the war we will cut off funding", but they can't say "You may not go beyond this limit" or "You must end the war right now".

They can and they did. In Vietnam they cut the funding for our soldier (I think it was July 73) do any more fighting. In 75 when the commie were taking over, congress refused to allow any fighting by our guys and that is why today you see pictures of us running from S. Vietnam. Ford wanted to send 2 or more carrier in and bomb the North but Congress said no.

	05-09-2002 06:28									#62
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quote: Actually the Gulf war of 91 is not over. Saddam had to agree with certain terms to stop the fighting. He did not surrender. He just agree to the term, which he has now violated, so technicality we can still go after him for violation of cease fire agreement.

I'm not sure about the legalities of that, and have not looked at the peace agreement, but the point is moot because war was not declared in the first place, and further, morally, we had no business fighting the war to begin with.

	05-09-2002 06:56									#63
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I didn't say our strategy was sound, but strategy is drawn up by the Pentagon, not Congress. Contrary to popular opinion, it was the military who screwed up the war, but not understanding the people whom they were fighting nor the so-called government they were aiding. The war in Vietnam was unwinnable on its face. Even if the US invaded the North, they would have had to face millions of screaming Chinese. The Chinese have recently released their plans for intervening in Vietnam, had the US invaded.

We would have kicked their ass period. It was not the military that screwed up, it was Johnson and McNamara who control the war so tight that the military could not fart unless LBJ/RM gave permission.
This how tight it was. The USS Long Beach was tracking two Mig-21s and wanted to shoot them down, so they had to call Washington and receive permission from the White House to fired. The White House finally gave permission and the two migs were shot down.
How would you like that as a sailor at sea on a ship tracking a hostile plane and he tracking you and you cannot fire unless Washington said it OK? These planes were only 70 miles away from the Long Beach. A MIG-21 can run at 1200 mph, however with missile on board maybe top speed would be more like 700 to 800 mph. If those plane turn toward the Long Beach it would only take 6 min. to over fly the Long Beach. If they had anti-ship missile on board they could have fired from 40 to 50 miles out, so they were only 2 or 3 min. from a possible firing position.
I was lucky, I was discharge some 60 days before my Ship saw action in Vietnam. Some of my buddies did see action in Nam.
McNamara should be tried as a traitor and put in prison for what he did to the Military. He and Johnson sent us to a war that they had no intention of winning.

	05-09-2002 07:08									#64
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'm not sure about the legalities of that, and have not looked at the peace agreement, but the point is moot because war was not declared in the first place, and further, morally, we had no business fighting the war to begin with.

Bush 1 did received permission by congress by one vote to start the war. 50.1 vs 49.9 hell of away to start a war.

	05-09-2002 23:12									#65
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 We would have kicked their ass period. It was not the military that screwed up, it was Johnson and McNamara who control the war so tight that the military could not fart unless LBJ/RM gave permission. This how tight it was. The USS Long Beach was tracking two Mig-21s and wanted to shoot them down, so they had to call Washington and receive permission from the White House to fired. The White House finally gave permission and the two migs were shot down. How would you like that as a sailor at sea on a ship tracking a hostile plane and he tracking you and you cannot fire unless Washington said it OK? These planes were only 70 miles away from the Long Beach. A MIG-21 can run at 1200 mph, however with missile on board maybe top speed would be more like 700 to 800 mph. If those plane turn toward the Long Beach it would only take 6 min. to over fly the Long Beach. If they had anti-ship missile on board they could have fired from 40 to 50 miles out, so they were only 2 or 3 min. from a possible firing position. I was lucky, I was discharge some 60 days before my Ship saw action in Vietnam. Some of my buddies did see action in Nam. McNamara should be tried as a traitor and put in prison for what he did to the Military. He and Johnson sent us to a war that they had no intention of winning.

Yes. This is entirely accurate. The primary lesson of Vietnam is that one should not begin hostilities unless one has a strategy of victory. Since victory was not Johnson's objective, defeat was inevitable.

The Gulf War started with the lessons of Vietnam in mind. We were going to kick Saddam out of Kuwait and then Saddam out of Bagdad. It ended in a mess because of the cease fire even though Bush said at the time his objective was to topple Saddam. But the cease fire agreement prevented our direct aid to the Kurds and Shi'ites who had revolted. The Republican Guard crushed the rebellions. Saddam was not toppled.

All this could have been predicted. The man behind the cease fire was none other than Colin Powell.

Our failure to complete the mission then lead to Osama Bin Laden, the WTC catastrophe and potentially WWIII.
Again, all this was predictable.

If you start hostilities and your strategy is not total victory, you will lose in the end.

	05-09-2002 23:48									#66
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 Bush 1 did received permission by congress by one vote to start the war. 50.1 vs 49.9 hell of away to start a war.

Well, Bush II is 49.8 vs 49.9, so...

I thought the Gulf War resolution was passed with just one dissenting vote (some woman from east St. Louis)?

I just watched DeLay and Daschle give separate "sit on my butt in a board room" conferences on CSPAN. Thoughts:

1. DeLay is a used car salesman. Slimey glad hander. Good ol' boy with a shotgun in one hand and a bourbon in the other. But he looks like he's got his game together on this -- he thinks he's going to win just in time for the election.

2. Daschle is horrible on TV -- he makes Al Gore look dynamic. He managed to say all the right things for 15 minutes but still sound like a dork. Americans vote for the guy they think can punch the other guy's lights out*. Daschle's a losing candidate for anything outside of SD.

If Bush wants a war he's getting a war. There's no way in hell congress votes against this, setting up a massive emotional reaction of blame the next time there's an attack.

* The undercard

1952 and 56: Eisenhower knows 72 ways to kill you with a blade of grass. Stevenson is a college professor who looks like the guy who cracks his glasses in the Twilight Zone episode. Ike, no contest.

1960: Kennedy young and virile, Nixon warped and viral. Nixon would probably trick his way to a win, but I guess the US wasn't cynical enough quite yet. Or maybe they were and Kennedy/Daley beat them to it in Chicago.

1964: Johnson is a crafty counterpuncher who can wait for Goldwater to expend all his energy in the early rounds. Johnson wins with rope-a-dope.

1968: The US was cynical enough *this* time. Nixon a tough street fighter, but this is still an anomoly.

1972: McGovern? *I* could beat up McGovern. Anyway, he was stoned.

1976: An anomoly -- Ford was a jock who could bench press most of the gusy on this list. This one definitely went to the wussier guy.

1980 and 84: Reagan before alzheimer's looked like he could kick the crap out of anybody except John Wayne.

1988: Mike Dukakis couldn't win a wrestling match with Kitty.

1992 and 96: You can't punch what you can't catch.

2000: Dubya would never actually beat somebody up -- but Daddy would pay three guys in ski masks to do it for him. And anyway, it was against Gore, a hall monitor.

So, in the last 13 elections Americans have voted for the guy they thought would win a steel cage match 11 times to 2. Unless the Dems run Gronk, they might have a problem.

	05-09-2002 23:49									#67
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Like father like son.


I told yall way back when that son-of-Bush stole the election that he would start a war.


Fell on deaf ears I see

	06-09-2002 00:12									#68
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quote: Congress must actually DECLARE WAR before we can attack anyone

The President of the United States may take any action neccesary, including military action, for 60 days without needing approval from Congress or a Declaration of War. Therefore , the Panama attack was legal, not illegal. As well as any other Military action that has taken place since Vietnam.

Thats just some info for you if you want to know.

.

	06-09-2002 00:19									#69
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 We would have kicked their ass period. It was not the military that screwed up, it was Johnson and McNamara who control the war so tight that the military could not fart unless LBJ/RM gave permission.

One example of some MiGs makes your point? The military drew up all those plans Johnson and McNamara were pouring over. The military got to bomb every single target it wanted in Vietnam, except those within ten miles of the Chinese border. Until the Gulf War, more bombs were dropped on Vietnam than in any other country in history. And when the bombs had fallen, the Vietnamese just ran right out and repaired everything.

The class of people whom were were supporting in Vietnam represented the French-spekaing Catholics, who were about 5% of the population (out of 56 million). Most of the supplies we sent to them ended up getting sold to the VC and NVA, because the government managers were so corrupt. The US was well aware of this, but refused to do anything about it, lest they violate South Vietnamese sovreignty, which they were supposedly there to shore up.

	06-09-2002 01:05									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara One example of some MiGs makes your point? The military drew up all those plans Johnson and McNamara were pouring over. The military got to bomb every single target it wanted in Vietnam, except those within ten miles of the Chinese border. Until the Gulf War, more bombs were dropped on Vietnam than in any other country in history. And when the bombs had fallen, the Vietnamese just ran right out and repaired everything. The class of people whom were were supporting in Vietnam represented the French-spekaing Catholics, who were about 5% of the population (out of 56 million). Most of the supplies we sent to them ended up getting sold to the VC and NVA, because the government managers were so corrupt. The US was well aware of this, but refused to do anything about it, lest they violate South Vietnamese sovreignty, which they were supposedly there to shore up.

Che, Hanoi and Haiphong were not bombed until the Christmas campaign of, when was it, '72? Shortly after, the NV signed the peace deal that got us out of the war.

So, it is simply not true that the military ever had a free hand in the conflict.

As to the Chinese, we could not defeat them either unless we were willing to invade China. If that happend, undoubtedly, the USSR would have intervened.

WWIII.

Korea should have taught us a lesson: NEVER get involved in a ground war in Asia. Instead, a series of presidents, from Eisenhower through Johnson, got us ever further into the quicksand. Tens of thousands of Americans and millions of Vietnamese lost their lives. What a tragedy.

	06-09-2002 01:58									#71
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I guess that Americans would finnaly get that Iraquian Oil.
After all those years of waiting.

And that "witch hunting" of Irquian biological and nuclear weapons gave enough legality to USA to do pre-empive strike without asking anybody.

They are only supre-power in world anyway.
They do what they want.

God forbid that some UN insperctors conclude that there is no such weapons in Iraq. It would spoil Amerian plans.

Better to act now.

And take that Oil as quickly as possibile.

Anyway, victorers make history.

And USA will be!

Bow all to mighty power of USA.
Or be crushed.

	06-09-2002 02:08									#72
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quote: Originally posted by player1 I guess that Americans would finnaly get that Iraquian Oil. After all those years of waiting. And that "witch hunting" of Irquian biological and nuclear weapons gave enough legality to USA to do pre-empive strike without asking anybody. They are only supre-power in world anyway. They do what they want. God forbid that some UN insperctors conclude that there is no such weapons in Iraq. It would spoil Amerian plans. Better to act now. And take that Oil as quickly as possibile. Anyway, victorers make history. And USA will be! Bow all to mighty power of USA. Or be crushed.

I'm sorry that you actually believe this leftist propaganda.

	06-09-2002 05:09									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Kepler Well, Bush II is 49.8 vs 49.9, so... I thought the Gulf War resolution was passed with just one dissenting vote (some woman from east St. Louis)?

The first vote I'm petty sure was by 1. A later vote may have been the one you are thinking of.

quote: I just watched DeLay and Daschle give separate "sit on my butt in a board room" conferences on CSPAN. Thoughts: 1. DeLay is a used car salesman. Slimey glad hander. Good ol' boy with a shotgun in one hand and a bourbon in the other. But he looks like he's got his game together on this -- he thinks he's going to win just in time for the election.

I'm conservative, however I don't trust DeLay at all.

quote: 2. Daschle is horrible on TV -- he makes Al Gore look dynamic. He managed to say all the right things for 15 minutes but still sound like a dork. Americans vote for the guy they think can punch the other guy's lights out*. Daschle's a losing candidate for anything outside of SD. If Bush wants a war he's getting a war. There's no way in hell congress votes against this, setting up a massive emotional reaction of blame the next time there's an attack. * The undercard 1952 and 56: Eisenhower knows 72 ways to kill you with a blade of grass. Stevenson is a college professor who looks like the guy who cracks his glasses in the Twilight Zone episode. Ike, no contest.

My mother was a democrate who supported Ike. I worn I like Ike button to school in 52 and 56. In those days you could do that and nobody said a word. Today look out.

quote: 1960: Kennedy young and virile, Nixon warped and viral. Nixon would probably trick his way to a win, but I guess the US wasn't cynical enough quite yet. Or maybe they were and Kennedy/Daley beat them to it in Chicago.

Nixon boys wanted him to fight the Chicago thing but Nixon said let it go. I dislike Nixon and did not vote for him in 68, but four years later I did vote for him. He gave the Federal Worker the two biggest pay raise in the History of the United State. The first year it was 11.6% and the next year it was 9.7%. The closest raise after he was gone was only 3.5%.

quote: 1964: Johnson is a crafty counterpuncher who can wait for Goldwater to expend all his energy in the early rounds. Johnson wins with rope-a-dope.

I would have voted for Johnson in 68. The Pentagon papers were just coming out and most people in this country still supported the war. After the summer of 68 everthing change.

quote: 1968: The US was cynical enough *this* time. Nixon a tough street fighter, but this is still an anomoly. 1972: McGovern? *I* could beat up McGovern. Anyway, he was stoned. 1976: An anomoly -- Ford was a jock who could bench press most of the gusy on this list. This one definitely went to the wussier guy. 1980 and 84: Reagan before alzheimer's looked like he could kick the crap out of anybody except John Wayne. 1988: Mike Dukakis couldn't win a wrestling match with Kitty.

I would wrestle with Kitty anyday.

quote: 1992 and 96: You can't punch what you can't catch.

In my book the biggest sleight of hand person to ever hold the office. The Clintons do not give a **** about this country or the people, he only cares about their self.

quote: 2000: Dubya would never actually beat somebody up -- but Daddy would pay three guys in ski masks to do it for him. And anyway, it was against Gore, a hall monitor. So, in the last 13 elections Americans have voted for the guy they thought would win a steel cage match 11 times to 2. Unless the Dems run Gronk, they might have a problem.

	06-09-2002 05:15									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Like father like son. I told yall way back when that son-of-Bush stole the election that he would start a war. Fell on deaf ears I see

The Newpapers when down and counted the vote after the election and Bush did win by just under 300 votes. Then the Papers did the count the way Gore wanted them to count, that means dimple, pimple, smuges, fingernail marks and he won by just under 400 votes.

	06-09-2002 05:20									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara One example of some MiGs makes your point? The military drew up all those plans Johnson and McNamara were pouring over. The military got to bomb every single target it wanted in Vietnam, except those within ten miles of the Chinese border. Until the Gulf War, more bombs were dropped on Vietnam than in any other country in history. And when the bombs had fallen, the Vietnamese just ran right out and repaired everything.

Not when Johnson was President. When Nixon was President and the commie would not sit at the table he lifted the bombing halt and it was then bombs away and then the commie sat at table to end American involument.

	06-09-2002 05:23									#76
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 Nixon boys wanted him to fight the Chicago thing but Nixon said let it go.

The vote fraud in Chicago was less than the margine by which Nixon lost the state. Daley didn't win the Presidency for Kennedy.

The reason why Nixon said let it go was because an investigation into vote fraud there would very likely lead to an investigation into vote fraud for the Republicans elsewhere. And Tricky **** had his hands in all parts of his campaign. In '68 he helped sabotage the Paris peace talks so that he could win. An evil, evil man.

	06-09-2002 05:35									#77
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I dont see why you people making such a big deal out of this. First of all it does is confrim a lot that has been said in the news for the last few months. Also all he said that he would take action against Iraq, but never said what kind of action. Also no resolution or DOW has been sent to Congress. What President Bush said he was going to do now is to try and convince allies of US and American public that they such all suport taking action against Iraq. Also CNN, MSNBC, and FOX news showed the press confrence of president live, I saw it on TV yesterday.

	06-09-2002 09:04									#78
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The vote fraud in Chicago was less than the margine by which Nixon lost the state. Daley didn't win the Presidency for Kennedy. The reason why Nixon said let it go was because an investigation into vote fraud there would very likely lead to an investigation into vote fraud for the Republicans elsewhere. And Tricky **** had his hands in all parts of his campaign. In '68 he helped sabotage the Paris peace talks so that he could win. An evil, evil man.

Che, All I ever heard was that Nixon, in marked contrast to Gore, decided to not contest. Kennedy, in turn, was extremely grateful for Nixon's statemanslike gesture.

Your statement clashes so much with conventional wisdom that I sincerely doubt Nixon failed to contest the election for the reason you stated, vote fraud elsewhere.

I don't recall, but I believe that even if Texas and Illinois were reversed, he still did not have enough electoral votes.

As to sabataging the peace talks, hah! The NV were playing the US like a banjo. They were the crafty ones, not Nixon.

	06-09-2002 09:08									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, All I ever heard was that Nixon, in marked contrast to Gore, decided to not contest. Kennedy, in turn, was extremely grateful for Nixon's statemanslike gesture.

Outside Chicago, I doubt you would have heard or read this. It was in the Chicago editorials.

quote: As to sabataging the peace talks, hah! The NV were playing the US like a banjo. They were the crafty ones, not Nixon.

And yet it was the South Vietnamese that pulled out of the talks, not the NV. And the South Vietnamese did so because they were told that they could get a better deal with Nixon as President than the deal that was on the table (the very deal which the US then signed 5 years, 25,000 dead Americans, and over a million Indochinese later).

	06-09-2002 19:57									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Outside Chicago, I doubt you would have heard or read this. It was in the Chicago editorials. And yet it was the South Vietnamese that pulled out of the talks, not the NV. And the South Vietnamese did so because they were told that they could get a better deal with Nixon as President than the deal that was on the table (the very deal which the US then signed 5 years, 25,000 dead Americans, and over a million Indochinese later).

95% pecent of that election was about Vietnam. Nixon said he had a plan to end the war honorably. He said this openly and throughout the campaign to everyone. If the SV walked out because of Nixon, it was not necessarily because he said something in private he was not saying in public.

	06-09-2002 20:18									#81
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Yes, Nixon did choose not to contest when all his aides were telling him too. Seeing what has happened after Bush and Gore, I think we all owe Nixon a debt of gratitute, especially for not putting the country through that during the Cold War.

	06-09-2002 20:20									#82
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Hey, the US won the Vietnam War. We crushed the Viet Cong and left GVN secure from internal revolt.

Then we left. The eventual conquest of the south by the north happened after we left. ARVN lost the war, not the US.

	06-09-2002 20:34									#83
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Felch X, There is a difference in winning the battles and winning the war. Hannibal won all the battles in Italy. He withdrews like we did. But did Carthage win the war?

	06-09-2002 20:44									#84
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Ned, we won in Vietnam. The Viet Cong were defeated. The defeat of the South Vietnamese happened years after we left.

And your Hannibal comparison is quite frankly retarded. It has nothing to do with the situation in Vietnam.

Hannibal didn't win because he failed to capture Rome when he had the opportunity. He languished in the south of Italy, until he had to be recalled to Africa to fight Scipio. In Vietnam we had a peace treaty, and by the time of the peace treaty, South Vietnam was more stable than it had been for years. The South Vietnamese lost the war through corruption and incompetence. We won.

	06-09-2002 20:57									#85
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Felch X, My point, consistently made, is that we could not win the war unless we took North Vietnam - just like Hannibal and Rome.

The so-called peace treaty was little more than a cease fire agreement that allowed us to withdraw. Hostilites continued because there was no fundamental resolution of the conflict.

Even the Romans screwed up Scipio's victory by not totally subjugating Carthage. Marcus Cato knew this. Every speech he made in the Senate from the fall of Carthage in the Second Punic War until the Third Punic war ended something like this:

"Carthage must be destroyed."

We and England and Franch beat Germany in WWI, but then simply imposed sanctions, etc. WWII was made inevitable. Learning our lesson, the Allies did not withdraw from Germany at the end of WWII.

At the end of the Gulf War there was only a cease fire and sanctions. We did not win that war. We only won the battle. The war continues.