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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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Okay folks....here's the latest topic we're trotting out to get ideas on and kick around! I'll post what we've got so far to get the discussion going, and will keep this thread open till Wednesday, September 11th, at which time, we'll wrap up the discussion and finalize stuff!
OH...and start thinking about ideas for fate cards, quests, and other groovy stuff like that....word has it that we'll be holding a fate discussion too....
-V.
*****
Rework of the Diplomatic/Espionage Model for the Core Rules
Thanks goes out to JMarks for his essays at 'poly, which helped me craft this model!
Diplomacy and Espionage:
Part One
The root of this model will center around a numeric range, from -100 to +100. Your relations with each of the factions in the game will be expressed as some number on this range. The range itself is broken out into nine segments. Each segment represents a different "attitude" toward your empire. The ranges, and their associated attitudes are as follows:
-100 to -84: Black-hearted hatred (weight for negatives = 2, weight for positives = 0.25)
-83 to -62: Disdain (weight for negatives = 1.75, weight for positives = 0.25)
-61 to -30: Distaste (weight for negatives = 1.50, weight for positives = 0.5)
-29 to -8: Negativity (weight for negatives = 1.25, weight for positives = 0.75)
-7 to + 7: Neutral (weight for all = 1)
+8 to +29: Positive (weight for negatives = 1, weight for positives = 0.75)
+30 to +61: Kindly Disposed (weight for negatives = 1, weight for positives = 0.5)
+62 to +83: Friends, Peers, Sister Nations (weight for negatives = 0.75, weight for positives = 0.5)
+84 to +100: Staunch Allies (weight for negatives = 0.75, weight for positives = 0.25)
(The exact effects of these to be fleshed out later)
Note that each of the nine "attitudes" will be assigned a weighting factor which will modify the impact of various actions you may elect to take to attempt to influence your standing....thus, showering a hated foe with gifts will not be nearly as effective as doing the same to someone who is Neutral or only slightly negative to you.
Note too, that all costs associated with diplomatic activities come from your "infrastructure" budget, while all costs associated with espionage activities are drawn from your "military" budget.
Finally, note that each faction has a "starting set" of attitudes toward the other, these are listed below:
Fury:
-->Castillar (+40)
--> Wizards (-10)
--> Council of Seven (- 5)
-->Mourngrym (-70)
Castillar
-->Fury (+40)
-->Wizards (-70)
-->Council of Seven (-10)
-->Mourngrym (-5)
Wizards
-->Fury (-10)
-->Castillar (-70)
-->Council of Seven (-5)
-->Mourngrym (+40)
Council of Seven
-->Fury (-5)
-->Castillar (-10)
-->Wizards (-5)
-->Mourngrym (-10)
Mourngrym
-->Fury (-70)
-->Castillar (-5)
-->Council of Seven (-10)
--> Wizards (+40)
*****
Summary of Additions
Here's a complete list of the new things (units, flags, buildings, etc) that these changes in the diplomatic/espionage model will bring about :
* New Unit - Spy 0*/0*/1 - Costs 21g, Per Turn Upkeep = 3g - Available at Espi Lvl 1. May only be hired from provinces containing Thieves' Guilds. Only one Spy may be hired per province, per turn, by any faction, and the cost of hiring spies comes out of your military budget. Spies are essential for performing certain espionage actions. Vs. other (combat) units, spies get no attack or defense rating, but vs. other spies, their attack and defense rating is equal to your current Espionage Tech level. Note an important difference between "Provincial Spies" and "Spies." Provincial Spies are locals you hire in someone else's territory to provide you with information. A Spy *unit* is a trained professional from your own territory. You may elect to send one of your spies into someone else's territory, and if you do, he gets a +30% chance of successfully becoming a Provincial Spy (a) he's better at his job, and b) he can go there, blend in with the local populace, and set up shop! Thus, professional spies are much less likely to be ferretted out than hired locals. Also, professional spies are 20% more likely to resist being found in a CounterSpy Sweep, and 25% less likely to be turned into a double agent if found. The act of training a spy takes up one of your Espionage Action points in the current turn. A professional spy recieves a bonus to accomplish whatever mission you assign him to equal to 10% + your espionage tech level (representing his greater relative skill over and above a provincial spy). Note that professional spies may be placed in your army. If they are, they do not participate in any attacking or defending if the army is attacked, cannot be targeted with precision strikes (but may be chosen as random casualties for spells or other effects), they serve as a measure of protection from battlefield assassination or troop buyoff, and they allow you to perform such actions on an enemy army. There is no limit to the number of spies you may have travelling with your army, and each spy can perform one action per battle round. Note that you must have an Espionage Action point to activate each spy you use, but once activated in a particular battle, no further Espionage Action Points need be spent. They will operate every combat round, for as long as you have resources left available.
* New Unit - Scout/Guide 5/5/2 - Costs 18g, Per Turn Upkeep = 2g (same as with all other troops). May only be hired from provinces containing both a barracks and a Thieves' Guild. Available at Espi Lvl 3. Scout/Guides are treated as Infantry with respect to Combat Tech improvements to their baseline numbers but specifically DO NOT gain Infantry special abilities (Initiative, Flank), and also have the following special ability: If a scout/guide is travelling in an army, then ALL units in the army (scout included) gain +1 on their defense number (which will lead in an overall increase in the army's defensive factor). This bonus is NOT cumulative. If you have more than one scout in the army, the bonus only applies once. It IS cumulative with all other bonuses stemming from other sources.
* New Building - Embassy - Available at Espi Lvl 2. Costs 50g. Allows more advanced Diplomatic functions with the faction you have established an embassy with. (no icon needed on the main map to represent the embassy).
*New Building - Counter Spy Cell Network - Available at Espi Lvl 10. Costs 200g. Per turn upkeep of 4g. Reduces the chances of all espionage conducted against the territory that the Cell operates from, and all provinces you control that are adjacent to it by 30%. Also serves to "sweep" (see Counterspy Sweep ability, detailed later) the province that the Network operates from, and all adjacent provinces you control, every turn at no cost to you, and has a flat 30% chance of uncovering spies placed in adjacent territories, every single turn. Note too that the presence of a counterspy network reduces the chance of enemy espionage actions that DO NOT target specific provinces, and in these cases, the effect is -5% per cell currently in operation.
*****
Spies and Spying - The gory details
There are two types of spies, and you may freely make use of both. Provincial Spies are not represented by units on the map, but rather by an "eye" icon in the provinces where you have them operating. This "eye icon" is only visible to you. No other players know it is there. If you fail in your efforts to successfully place a spy, what it really means is that your spy is placed (and you gain information about the province you placed him in normally), but that the owner of the province you placed him in KNOWS the spy is there, and has a chance of ferreting out who tried to buy off one of their citizens. This chance is equal to 40% + (5*Their espi level - 2* your espi level). A successful check means that the player you attempted to spy on not only knows of the spy's presence, but also is aware of the fact that YOU are responsible for his being there.
The other type of spy is the trained professional. These guys are trained in your thieves' guilds, and have higher percentage chances of getting situated without getting caught. They are also less likely to turn on you if they ARE caught.
Note that your active spies (those spies which are currently represented by "eye" icons in other people's territory stand a small (2%) chance of being drafted into military service by the player who owns the province. If that occurs, then the spy is removed from the province, and instead, travels with the army he was drafted into. (the "eye" now hovers over the army, instead of in the midst of the population center graphic). This creates a "mobile spy" for you, and gives you the opportunity to subvert the entire army. To do so, you must be at Espi Level 10. Chances are the same as per Subverting a province, with the caveat that if successful, you get the ENTIRE army under your control immediately. This will, in all probablility, result in battle the moment you do it, but so be it. You may not make use of the spy's other battlefield functions (troop buyoff or battlefield assassination unless you actually fight the army in question. Then, the spy simply serves as another spy available to do your bidding).
*****
Spy Missions
Unless otherwise noted, all of the following spy missions have the pre-requisite that you MUST have a spy in an opponent's province before committing to the mission.
Espi Level 0 - Hire Provincial Spy - New Map Graphic - One of the most basic espionage functions, this option is available without any Espionage tech research at all. A provincial spy is some guy in a province you don’t own, whom you pay for information. Nothing more, nothing less. It costs 21g to cultivate such a spy (espionage function), and 3gpt to maintain the spy. You can tell which provinces you currently have Provincial Spies in because placing such a spy will a) remove the fog of war in that province, and b) place a small “eye” icon in the province that only you can see. Having a Provincial Spy in place gives you the same level of information you have in your own provinces, including complete troop information, making these guys a bargain indeed! Your chances of successfully placing the spy in enemy territory are as follows: 50% + (5* Your Espionage Level - 2* Enemy Espionage Level). A failed result is transparent to you. It means that the spy was placed, but that the faction you placed the spy with was alerted to its presence, and may deal with it accordingly. (so, from the player's perspective, they always succeed in placing their spies). The act of hiring a provincial spy takes up one of your Espionage Action points in the current turn. It is not necessary to have a professional spy in the target territory to hire a Provincial Spy there.
Espi Level 0 - Incite Rebellion - Simply requires one or more Thieves' Guilds to function (which makes it a pre-requisite of Infrastructure Tech Level 1) - This is the same ol' Incite Rebellion function to be found in the core rules. No changes here at this time.
Espi Level 1 - Basic Intel Gathering - This is the "Information Gathering" Espionage ability from the core rules, involving an effort to "peek" at what (if any) Fate Cards the target player might be holding. Mostly, this amounts to sending people into taverns to evesdrop on the conversations of men learned about such things. It is not necessary to have a spy in any particular province to perform this action.
Espi Level 1 - Train Spy - See note above on professional spies and their differences from the hired local talent. It is not necessary to have a spy in a province in order to train a spy.
Espi Level 1 - Steal Gold - Activate target spy - order to steal gold
Espi Level 3 - Steal/Corrupt Research - Activate target spy - order to steal plans and prototypes, or to destroy same.
Espi Level 3 - Acquire Double Agent - Any time a spy is found operating in your territory, you may attempt to sway that spy to your side. To do so, you must send one of your spies into the territory with the enemy spy. Battle results. If your spy wins the battle, there is a baseline 30% chance that you can sway the spy to your side (modified by 2% * Your espi level - opponent espi level). If the spy does not become a double agent, he is killed. If he does become a double agent, he remains, but begins providing the faction who placed him with false information about the province (random each turn, +/- 40% of troop strength data)
Espi Level 5 - Troop Buyoff - Requires that you have at least one spy in your army.
Espi Level 5 - Demolitions Expert - Cost 40g, 4gpt maintenance if not detonated immediately - Select target province and get a pull down menu of provincial buildings present. You have a chance of destroying target building and (potentially) doing collateral damage to troops in the province. Chance of destroying target building is 50% + (5* Your tech level - 2* enemy tech level). Chance of collateral damage is a survival check made by every unit in the province with the bomb. 1-2 on a d20 and target unit dies. Leaders are not subject to this check.
Espi Level 7 - Battlefield Assassination - Requires that you have at least one spy in your army.
Espi Level 9 - Counterspy Sweep - Cost 10g This ability allows you to “check” your provinces for potential spy activity, and with further action by you, root them out and prevent enemy spies from passing important information to other factions. Chances of success when looking for a spy in your territory are 50% + (5*your espi level - 3* enemy espi level). Few things are harder than ferreting out spies in your own territory. It requires a great deal of patience and a healthy Intelligence Infrastructure. Note that this sweep will only reveal the *presence* of a spy operating in your territory. It will do nothing to remove the spy from your holdings.
Espi Level 10 - Subversion - A dangerous game to play indeed, subverting an enemy province out from under their control is an alternate method of gaining control of a province. Uses the same formula as Inciting Rebellion, with the exception that troops in the province do NOT modify the chances of success downward, but the chances of success are a flat 20% less than with Rebellion. The result though, is that if successful, the province reverts immediately to your control. All troops loyal to the formerly owning faction must roll a d20, 1-8 they revert to your control, 9-20 they do not switch sides and are expelled to the next nearest province that their master controls. Note that neutral provinces MAY be subverted to your will, and in the case of neutral provinces, all troops therein automatically revert to your control (they "switch uniforms").
Things that impact Diplomatic Relations with other factions
A variety of in-game actions can and will impact your relations with other nations. For the system to work, these must ALL be enumerated.
Negative Impacts
* Attacking a faction - Automatically reduces your relationship with that faction to -100
* Attacking the ally of a faction - Damages your relationship with that faction by -20 to -30 points (random)
* Breaking ANY alliance (negative): Damages your relationships with ALL AI's by 5 to 10 points, plus 5 to 10 points additional for each agreement you have broken in the past.
* If you are infamous, all your relations will decline by -2 with all factions, every four (4) turns. (absolute values, see above)
* Getting caught performing espionage functions will damage your relations with the AI you were performing the operation against (see the section on Espionage operations for specific effects). (Negative)
* Letters of Demand (see below for details)
Positive Impacts
* State Gifts/Bribes (positive) - Improves your relationship with that faction by X, where X = 1/4 the gold value, or 1/4 the cost of the unit(s) so gifted (1/10th of the value in the case of bribes, which are a more primitive version of State Gifts)
* Attacking the enemy of an AI nation - Improves your standing with that AI nation by 10-20 points (random) - Note here that an "enemy" is specifically defined as a faction that is presently in a state of war with the AI in question.
*Letters of Commendation (see below for details)
Case-by-case Impacts
* Fate Cards gifted to an AI - varies, see specific Fate Cards for details
* If you have honor, then your positive relations with all other honorable factions will increase by +1 every four (4) turns. All other relations will degenerate by -1 every four (4) turns. (this boost/degradation is not subject to positive/negative weight modifiers…these are absolute values).
Other
Diplomatic Incident (see below for details)
(Need some help here....in the absence of a societal/econ model, what other in-game events can or would potentially build up or degrade a relationship....I'm sure I forgot some)
*****
(to be continued)
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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Part Two
Expansions for the Espionage Techs
Espionage techs, and their newly expanded functions, are listed below:
Level 1 - Basic Thievery: Steal Gold (SG hereafter) ability is gained with a 60 percent chance of success. Gather Intelligence (Int hereafter) ability is gained with XX percent chance of success. With the "Gather Intelligence" ability. The ability to create a formalized Peace Treaty becomes available here.
Level 2 - Robbery/Basic Diplomacy: SG success base becomes 70 percent. Also comes the ability to conduct Basic Diplomacy - That is to say, establishing embassies with other factions competing for control of Candle'Bre. Establishing an embassy with another faction gives you a one time boost of 10-20 points (random) of relationship building with that faction, and costs a flat fee of 50g.
Level 3 - Infiltration: Steal/Corrupt (SR) Research ability is gained with a 50 percent chance of success (for Steal). Scout/Guide Becomes available. Double Agents become available.
Level 4 - Stealth/Intermediate Diplomacy: SG success base becomes 75 percent. SR base becomes 60 percent. Note that this level of finesse also allows for Intermediate Diplomacy, the ability to begin sending gifts of state to other factions (gifting gold or units in a bid to improve your relationship with a given faction). Also allows for the staging of a Diplomatic Incident
Level 5 - Propaganda: Troop Buyoff ability (BR) is gained with a 50 percent chance of success. Demolitions Expert becomes available.
Level 6 - Forgeries/Advanced Diplomacy: SG base becomes 80 percent. SR base becomes 65 percent. BR base becomes 60 percent. Note that at this level, you also gain Advanced Diplomatic functions....the ability to forge formal alliances (which brings with it greater map information, as you gain the map info of your allies). Note that allied troops can stack together in the same province without prompting an attack.
Level 7 - Assassination/Coordination: Assassinate (A) ability is gained at a base 40 percent chance of success. Note that this level of research also brings with it Military Coordination options of Diplomacy, allowing you and your allies to better coordinate your attacks to ensure your continued safety and survival.
Level 8 - Accent Training/Vassalization: SG base becomes 85 percent. SR base becomes 75 percent. BR base becomes 70 percent. A base becomes 50 percent. Vassalization becomes available.
Level 9 - Camouflage: SG base becomes 90 percent. SR base becomes 80 percent. BR base becomes 75 percent. A base becomes 55 percent. The ability to Counter-Spy becomes available here. Double Agent acquisition also acquired here.
Level 10 - Syndicate: SG base becomes 95 percent. SR base becomes 85 percent. BR base becomes 80 percent. A base becomes 60 percent. Counter Spy Cell Network becomes available here. Subversion available here.
*****
Part Three
Diplomatic Options Detailed
Here's the complete list of things you can do with Diplomacy and Espionage. Unless otherwise noted, each of these actions may be performed but once per turn, per faction.
Espi Level 0 Declaration of War - Free - No special infrastructure or diplomatic training needed. Move your troops into the other guy's turf, and it's done! This may be done as often as desired.
Notes: Declaring war on a Sister or Peer nation causes you to lose half your accumulated honor. Declaring war on an ally causes you to lose all accumulated honor.
Espi Level 0 Truce - Free - No special infrastructure or diplomatic training needed. A Truce is the only means that non-diplomatic folk have of ending (or temporarily calling a halt to) hostilities. A Truce may be offered or cancelled at any time, with no ill effects suffered. (No honor is lost for renewing hostilities, because it is understood that in making the Truce, both sides are agreeing to a temporary ending of hostilities).
Espi Level 0 Brute Flattery (Bribery) - (Espionage function - all gold comes from the military budget) Again, no special infrastructure or diplomatic training needed. You can gift units or gold to any player, but unlike the more advanced "State Gift" (available at Espi Level 4), the effect of such bribes are equal to 1/10th the gold value of the bribe. This may be done as often as desired.
Notes: As soon as Espi Level 4 has been researched by your faction, the "Bribe" option vanishes entirely, replaced by the "State Gift" option.
Espi Level 0 - Submissive State - Cost 200g to establish (war reparations). No diplomatic pre-requisites. A vassal gained through conquest. A Submissive state is one who has been roundly beaten in combat and who has surrendered to you. Submissives MAY break their pact with you if they are mistreated (upon surrendering, submissives have a -83 relationship with you, should it stray to -100, they WILL break free again….it’s up to you to improve relations with them). They are in all other respects, like Vassals. (exception - Submissives will break free at any time that their military = 75% or more of yours).
Espi Level 1 Peace - Free A fairly basic tenant of diplomacy, this resides alongside the Truce option as soon as you research the first level of Espionage techs. The Peace Treaty is a formalized contractual agreement by both sides to call an end to hostilities for some specified duration (default is 10 turns, can be set to an length from 6 to 14). If the covenants of the Peace are broken before it expires naturally, the faction breaking the peace suffers a hit to honor (to be determined).
Espi Level 2 Letter of Commendation - Requires that an embassy have been established with the faction to become available. Costs 20g to send (diplomatic function, taken from infrastructure pool). Essentially, this is a letter recognizing the other faction leader's exploits and great deeds....flattery, in hopes of improving relations by beginning an ongoing dialogue. Effect: Improves relations by a base of 5 to 10 points per.
Espi Level 2 Letter of Demand - Requires that an embassy have been established with the faction to become available. Costs 20g to send (diplomatic function, taken from infrastructure pool). If sent to a faction you're on good terms with, this may be seen as more of a "request for aid" but the result is the same - you want something, and you want something for nothing. No matter how you look at it, this will put a strain on any relationship. -10 to -20. Only one such letter may be sent to a given faction on a given turn.
Notes: The following things may be demanded
* Gold (for infrastructure)
* Gold (for military)
* Units (type and number)
* One or more Fate Cards currently held
* One province
The chances of getting what you demand are as follows:
Your total attack strength/AI's total Defense strength for the basic percentage, +/- 3% per "step" away from neutrality (+ for good relations, - for poor relations). Modified by: -2% per demand beyond the first, -1% per item beyond the first demanded (more than one troop) (note that in the case of gold, this modifier would be -1% per twenty (20) gold beyond the first twenty (20) gold demanded).
Note that if a province is demanded, then the chance of success modified by -(Province Value/10)% and then cut the value in half.
Espi Level 4 - Gift of State - Cost Varies - Diplomatic Function - straight gold comes from the infrastructure budget, while money to buy gifted troops comes from the military budget. Requires an Embassy and at least Espi Level 4. Note that gold or units may be given as gifts for a relationship boost of 1/4 of their value. Note too that provinces may be gifted in this manner. If a province is so gifted, then the effect is equal to the gpt value of the province gifted.
Espi Level 4 - Diplomatic Incident - Cost 100g (Espionage function - taken from your military budget) - Sends one of your spies on a mission to disrupt relations between two factions. Requires an embassy with the faction you are attempting to wreck relations for, and at least Espi level 4. Basically, your agent “does something” and somebody else gets blamed. Chance of success is: 40% + (5*Your Espi level - 3* Opponent Espi Level). Base chance of getting caught is 30% - (2* your espi level - opponent espi level). Level of impact is 10 points per espi level you have researched. Failure means that you've been found out, and your own reputation takes a hit with both parties, equal to the amount of damage you would have done.
Espi Level 6 - Forge Alliance - Cost 100g to establish and 4gpt from each side to maintain) (diplomatic function - comes from the infrastructure pool). Requires an embassy be established with the faction to be allied with, and a minimum relationship of +70. Chances of the AI accepting your alliance proposal are 0% + (0.5 * relationship value if between 70 and 83) OR (0.75 * relationship value if 84 or higher) + 4% if you and the target faction are both honorable, -10% if either of you are Infamous. An alliance allows map sharing (pushes back the fog of war), and allows your troops to move into the ally's territory freely, stacking your troops in the same province without triggering combat.
Espi Level 8 - Vassalization - Cost 200g to establish the needed bridging infrastructure and 10gpt to maintain (diplomatic function - comes from the infrastructure pool). Requires an alliance in good standing for at least ten turns. Also requires that your total attack factor (count all troops you control) be at least 300% higher than your ally's total defense factor (total of all troops). Vassalization allows for the transfer of troops from your armies to your Vassal's armies, and vice versa. It also brings you an extra boost of gold, equal to half the income your vassal produces.
Notes:
* Your vassal's territories count toward your victory condition
* Taking troops from your Vassal and placing them in your army damages your relationship with the vassal (1/4 of the value of the troops taken), and giving troops TO a Vassal improves your relations (same effect).
* If you Vassal gains sufficient strength such that his military strength surpasses your own, the vassalship will end (need a reporting screen to track this).
* If your relationship with the Vassal drops below + 70, the Vassalization ends, and any troops you have in the territories of your former Vassal are sent home (nearest province).
*****
Other ideas not yet worked in but being considered
* Colorless troops - hired to invade a specific province (owned by another faction or neutral. If the province is neutral, then they are simply added to the pool of troops that must be defeated when the province is attacked by one of the factions. If the province is faction-controlled, then the troops become "provincial spies" (giving you access to province info as per provincial spy). The difference though, is that these can be "activated" on command from you (pay some gold price to activate), and when activated, they will attempt to wrest control of the province from the owner by force (combat ensues at the start of the owning player's turn). For as long as the province remains in the hands of the neutrals, they are X% more likely than normal to join you if you attempt to subvert or control the province (lingering effects of your earlier influence).
* Would love to put some interesting abilities into the espi tree that are honor/infamy specific....no ideas in particular here, but just like some of the recent spells I proposed....set up an option or two that are ONLY available if you have honor, and some others that are only available if you are Infamous. Whatcha think?
Final Notes
This is very much a "live" document at this point.....open for discussion, debate, public ridicule, etc.  I realize that there are some places not neatly tied in with our other systems yet....when you see them, point them out and we'll make sure we don't miss anything!
Discuss! 
-=Vel=-
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BigRich
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of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:22
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Some quick thoughts.
Don't know if it's possible, but I would love to see some way of improving allied territory via diplomacy. This would be most useful for single player vs AI but could work fairly well in multiplayer. Basically it would a diplomatic option (once you are in an Alliance) to suggest to your ally that he may want to build a particular improvement in one of his provinces. Chance of him doing this could be dependent on current diplomatic standing, how recently you have made a similar suggestion or even a putative 'Diplomacy point' counter, that limits the number of such suggestions you can make.
Couple of scenarios. 1. You have a nice high tech (well relatively speaking  ) province but are a tad short of raw materials, say ore in the Empire. You request an audience with your Ally, who has a nice mountainous province that is currently being used as a defensive outpost and sheep farm but not much else. You suggest that he might like to build a mine or two in that province and export you some ore. In return for helping him out with the start up costs of course.
2. You have new Ally whose provinces border on another factions. You are somewhat suspicious of this second faction, so you send a message to your ally suggesting that he may want to fortify his provinces a little.
You get the idea? Hopefully a way of turning an Ally into a really useful asset, rather than just a buffer against the enemy or one less faction to fight. Could also help with AI factions, who seem to lack that certain logical touch with their province improvements (SMAC terraformers anyone ). Of course the CB AI may well do a distinctly better job of such things but I still think the above idea would be nice.
It would also be a way of introducing a Governance Point type system, for those that like such things. Your ally is an independent player, you can't watch over him or micromanage his territory. What you can do is nudge his decisions a little using diplomacy, to make his provinces more useful to you.
just some thoughts anyway.
Rich.
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BigRich
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of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
moomin, is there any reason why they wouldn't be? Please point them out, it's been so hectic lately that we prolly have forgotten a few things...
Rich: I like your idea, but am wondering how to implement it. In example 1 the question is how your ally (an AI) is going to assess how good / bad it is to build something like a mine, and give the resources to you.
Example 2 is more straigthforward: if you will pay for the fortifications of your ally, there is no way that he is going to reject it. It only helps him... especially if you would also assign the workers to it, so he can build something else in the mean time.
It's a good idea, but I fear there are a few caveats to the implementation... I hear our coders complaining already: Oh No! Not another extra feature!
DeepO |
Fair point and well taken. If it simplifies things, I was thinking along the lines that your Ally would automatically build what you ask him to build.
The big caveat is, that you need to have an adequate diplomatic standing with him first, as measured in diplomacy points. You get these for keeping the Alliance going, say at a rate of 1 per turn. You also get them for agreeing to your Ally's requests of you. You lose them by turning down his requests.
Aside. For this to work well, there should be a reasonable number of diplomatic options available, rather than just 'give me cash or we break this alliance', or 'Declare war on faction X' Again I would love to break out of the typical 4X mould where allies more often than not just turn into a nuisance that have to be constantly appeased. If we have a number of options available, you could grant some requests, whilst denying others and yet still remain on good terms. Better yet there could be a 'Diplomatic History' screen, to let you keep track of such things and give you some idea of when you can afford to stonewall your Ally's requests and when it would probably be a good idea to let him have this one
Anyway back on track. To put a building in Ally's territory you spend X number of diplomacy points but the deal is automatic. Your Ally is presumed to trust that your long term goals are benevolent. Of course if you then double cross him/her, then you lose all your diplomacy points, your Alliance and get a significant penalty to any future diplomacy. This is what I meant in my last post, when I mentioned the GP system. Diplomacy points work in a similar way - you get a limited amount of them, but they result in partial control of provinces. It also means that you don't necessarily have to take everything by force to have a huge empire - to a certain extent, Allied provinces can be made to work for you without you needing to capture them.
Does this make things clearer, or have I just muddied the waters a bit more?
Rich
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:22
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Wel... it did clarify why you want to have it in, but I'm not sure on the how part. The problem with those diplomacy points will be more or less the same as with GP, they are more a punishment then a reward. And having an ally who automatically builds what you ask him.... mhhh. This would also mean that you build whatever another asks you, and somehow I don't see many people who will want a 'stupid' AI decide for them what to build.
Plus, I'm also thinking on exploitability. If you are planning on breaking a treaty, or let a treaty water down because your ally is growing too stronge, and you want to prune his power a little, this mechanism will ensure that you are able to start building up his provinces before you take them. If this gets done, we need some way of avoiding that.
So allow me to propose an alternative, a bit simpler but in the same spirit: One of the final diplomacy options will be to give units to an ally (give, or maybe even sell). In the same spirit, you are allowed to build fortifications in his territory (again on your cost, or at least partially your cost). So purely military, you are able to help an ally out, and even more or less reinforce his borders where he needs it (but doesn't know it yet).
This has the advantage that the ally does not have to assess if it will be benevolent to him in the long term, and as long as he is not obliged to do something (it is a gift), he won't mind. Besides, I can imagine that humans will like it when an AI gifves them troops or pays for a castle, even if it is not in the most strategic of places.
I don't know Vel's idea about all of this, but somehow the diplomatic equivalent of governance points gives me the chills I agree with you on one big point, though: the diplomatic model in the commercial release has to be state of the art, and will need to have loads of options for interactions. What is outlined above is just a start. But if we could get all kind of ideas in without driving the coders nuts, we win twice
DeepO
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BigRich
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of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Wel... it did clarify why you want to have it in, but I'm not sure on the how part. The problem with those diplomacy points will be more or less the same as with GP, they are more a punishment then a reward. And having an ally who automatically builds what you ask him.... mhhh. This would also mean that you build whatever another asks you, and somehow I don't see many people who will want a 'stupid' AI decide for them what to build.
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Well I had pictured them as being purely a reward. You don't have to play especially nice, but if you do you get a bonus from it. I agree with the last part though - and the only solution I can see would lead us back in a circle to your original point about it being tough for the AI to pick out a good deal  Back to the drawing board.
quote:
Plus, I'm also thinking on exploitability. If you are planning on breaking a treaty, or let a treaty water down because your ally is growing too stronge, and you want to prune his power a little, this mechanism will ensure that you are able to start building up his provinces before you take them. If this gets done, we need some way of avoiding that.
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I was thinking that the penalty for treaty breaking would be sufficiently harsh for this not to be too much of an issue. Pruning your opponent diplomatically would be a cool alternative to crushing him militarily in my book. But maybe I'm coming at this too much from the viewpoint of an honourable player to see both sides of the argument effectively.
quote:
So allow me to propose an alternative, a bit simpler but in the same spirit: One of the final diplomacy options will be to give units to an ally (give, or maybe even sell). In the same spirit, you are allowed to build fortifications in his territory (again on your cost, or at least partially your cost). So purely military, you are able to help an ally out, and even more or less reinforce his borders where he needs it (but doesn't know it yet).
This has the advantage that the ally does not have to assess if it will be benevolent to him in the long term, and as long as he is not obliged to do something (it is a gift), he won't mind. Besides, I can imagine that humans will like it when an AI gifves them troops or pays for a castle, even if it is not in the most strategic of places.
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Sweet!
quote:
I don't know Vel's idea about all of this, but somehow the diplomatic equivalent of governance points gives me the chills I agree with you on one big point, though: the diplomatic model in the commercial release has to be state of the art, and will need to have loads of options for interactions. What is outlined above is just a start. But if we could get all kind of ideas in without driving the coders nuts, we win twice
DeepO |
Ideas I can do. Realistic ideas - heh that's different . It's fun to bounce them around here though and knock them into a realistic form - even if they never make it into the game. I've got a whole lot of fun out of this game so far - and thats before the beta!
Rich
Last edited by BigRich on 05-09-2002 at 20:34
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cyclotron7
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Drowning in Schnitzel
Jan 2001
time: 21:22
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I had no idea the system was this evolved... I see I have missed a lot while I've been gone! I agree with past opinions that alliances especially need to change from the tradition of nuicances and have actual use... I like the features so far given, and I will continue to watch them develop.
I would like to see espionage abilities expanded in the direction of magic, ie more than just conventional abilities. A combination of the Mage guild and Theives guild to produce "infiltrators," a kind of power-augmented spy. Training one would require a certain level of esp. tech and magic tech, and each of their abilities would require a magic tech level as well. Except where noted below, infiltrators would have the same abilities as spies.
Infiltrator Changes:
Mind Tap. Steal research attempts by the infiltrator have a 25% higher success rate and a 25% lower chance of detection.
Duplicitous. Infiltrators have a baseline 45% chance to be made double agents... powerful, but unreliable.
Destruction. Your magic tech level is added to your esp. tech level when calculating chance of success in demolitions attempts.
Death Spell. Your battlefield assasination attempts are more likely to succeed.
Magical Inquisitor. Your magic tech level is added to your esp. tech level when calculating the chance to ferret out spies in your territory. In addition, if your Infiltrator is subject to a sweep, he adds your mag. levels to his own defense.
Untrustworthy. Infiltrators may not be used for buyoff operations, bribes, subversion, or inciting revolts. They don't want to be seen, and are not trusted.
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BigRich
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of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:22
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Hi,
A few more thoughts to add:
1. A general thought on conducting negotiations. What about issuing diplomatic requests via envoy? In gameplay terms, requests are issued (or received) on one turn and can then be acted upon either that turn or the turn after. Allows you to call up all the information you need before coming to a decision. I'm pretty certain this has been brought up before, but I figured it deserved mentioning in this thread. There could even be a slight bonus (higher chance that your demands will be met) for answering requests within the turn they were received - opposing leaders are 'grateful for your prompt attention to these matters'
2. Some stuff to do with your Ally
- At the moment, an alliance means that you can enter your Ally's provinces without starting a war. How about extending that and having an option to request that Ally troops within the Province may be stacked with yours, to then be used as you see fit. Caveat - unless you actually *do* do something with them within the next 2 turns, the 'loaned' troops revert back to your Ally's control and you lose a small amount of diplomatic standing. Should prevent this being exploited too much.
- Mutual Wonder building. You and your Ally join forces to build a Wonder. The chance of your ally agreeing to this would depend on which wonder it was (I assume the AI will have a priority list for wonder construction), whether or not an opposing faction was more than halfway towards completing that wonder, and whether or not your Ally calculates that he could finish it first unaided. Jointly built wonders would only be half as effective to you (and your Ally), than if they were built by you alone, but its better to get half of something than all of nothing . Would work quite well with my previous thoughts on wonder construction - your Ally could contribute gold per turn to the construction effort for example.
- Trade benefits. Assuming that some sort of commodity trading will be in the game, one diplomatic option could be to demand lower import prices of, or grant lower export prices to, your Ally. Alternatively any deal could cost the same but give you 10% more goods for that money. Reflects the fact that your Ally is earmarking the best goods for you and/or preferentially speeding transit, so that perishable goods are more likely to arrive in a usable state.
- Establishing an Alibi. Related to the 'Cause diplomatic incident' feature discussed above. Basically you and your Ally consult beforehand on this incident, share intelligence information or whatever. In gameplay terms, you get a 10-20% greater chance to successfully set up the incident.
- Mutual exchange of ley-lines. Depends on how Magic is eventually implemented but one possible diplomatic request could be a mutual tapping of each others leylines to boost power to each others sigils.
- Joint spells. Again depends on how magic is implemented but as things stand at the moment, a faction can only specialise in one school of magic (2 for the Wizards.). There was also some previous discussion of 'cross school' spells, ie ones that might require the use of two or more elements to cast. How about if such spells were only castable if you and your Ally joined forces to combine one anothers arcane knowledge.
- Sharing intelligence. Forming an Alliance gives you intelligence on allied Provinces. Does it give you intelligence on Provinces infiltrated by your Ally?? If not, this could also be a diplomatic request, probably on a quid pro quo basis - 'I'll give you info on Province X in exchange for info on Province Y.' The information could be temporary - accurate for one turn only, or permanent - automatically updated.
Anyway just some ideas to kick around. I'll carry on thinking meanwhile!
Rich.
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05-09-2002 01:02
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