06-09-2002 03:49									#1
	Reverse Engineering by AI? Remove this text

Although I don't post many messages here, I've been playing SMAC/X almost every day for at least two years. I just saw something I can't remember seeing before. Something similar may have been reported by others, but a brief search didn't turn anything up.

I'm playing SMAX, fully patched. I'm the Gaians and the Morganites are a submissive pact mate. I gifted Morgan a 1e-1-6 (Clean) Empath Cruiser. Morgan did not have Doc: Initiative. A few turns later I noticed that one of Morgan's bases was building a 1e-2-6 Empath Synthmetal Cutter (non-clean). I also can see this unit in Morgan's Security Nexus screen. Morgan still doesn't have Doc:Initiative (in fact, that's what he's currently researching, with 4 turns to go).

So it looks like Morgan reverse engineered my gifted 1e-1-6 (clean) Cruiser into a 1e-2-6 non-clean cruiser. I didn't think the AI would do this. Anyone have an explanation?

Petek

	06-09-2002 04:39									#2
	Tired of ads?

i think the AI does reverse engineer. IIRC, zak reverse engineered a probed chaos unit from me one time. roze *tried* to build chaos one time after she probed me, but fortunately, i was able to erradicate her before she finished the prototypes

	07-09-2002 10:07									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 how do you give units to the AI?!

First you have to have sex with their faction leader.

	07-09-2002 11:03									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I guess that's why I never give units to Yang! LOL

	07-09-2002 11:03									#5
	Remove this text

quote: how do you give units to the AI?!

After having sex, you've got two actions: Either when you give away a base (diplomacy->suggestion->sign of goodwill->transfer base, or so) I think all units supported from and present in this base will be transferred.
Or, for single units, move them into the AI's territory and call "transfer unit" in the action menu.

quote: First you have to have sex with their faction leader.

Hard time to transfer a unit to the Consciousness or the Aliens ...

	07-09-2002 19:55									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus Or, for single units, move them into the AI's territory and call "transfer unit" in the action menu.

alternatively, press either CTRL+U or SHIFT+U (can't remember which). the same goes for releasing worms into the wild.

	08-09-2002 02:46									#7
	all of the above Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: TKG wrote: alternatively, press either CTRL+U or SHIFT+U (can't remember which). the same goes for releasing worms into the wild.

To gift or release a unit it's all three keys:
CTRL + SHIFT + U.
CTRL + U = upgrade unit.
SHIFT + U = unload transport.
Solo U = unit workshop.

	09-09-2002 00:49									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Shift&U - ugh! The key combo I forgot...stupid person that I am...

Anyway. Turning over units is a nice thing to do, but can also be used to cripple the AI's war effort, sucking their support dry and giving them useless units. I once gave Deirdre a hovertan transport and because she'd never seen one before she started mass-producing them. One at every second base...weird woman...

	09-09-2002 00:55									#9
	Tired of ads?

quote: Anyway. Turning over units is a nice thing to do, but can also be used to cripple the AI's war effort, sucking their support dry and giving them useless units. I once gave Deirdre a hovertan transport and because she'd never seen one before she started mass-producing them. One at every second base...weird woman...

I like that ... AI imitating like monkeys ...and many humans behave the same way. Of course, that's the way children learn. I've read about an experiment where adults switched off the light with their nose. Most (very young, two or three years old) children imitated at first. The brighter ones then realized that it works just as well with the hands. But who said the AI is bright ...

	09-09-2002 01:03									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The AI is about as bright as a two-watt lightbulb. Unfortunately, that also makes it irritating...
Especially the way someone can go from magnanimous to seething in the space of a turn just because their pact brother decided they should go to war with you...
Lovely. One turn I'm cosying up to Deirdre, about to extract the secret of Centauri Meditation from her, and then Lal wanders in and, oh look, they're combining forces against me. Gah.

	09-09-2002 03:59									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies Anyway. Turning over units is a nice thing to do, but can also be used to cripple the AI's war effort, sucking their support dry and giving them useless units. I once gave Deirdre a hovertan transport and because she'd never seen one before she started mass-producing them. One at every second base...weird woman...

I've also employed the technique of turning over useless units. However, this could backfire if the AI can reverse engineer a hovertank transport into a hovertank probe team or something else more useful.

I once gave Deidre Needlejet transports and she cranked out dozens. She never, however, used the Needlejet chassis for anything else until she discovered DAP. Contrast this with the original post in this thread.

So, does anyone know the conditions under which the AI will reverse engineer your gifts and what they will change them to?

	09-09-2002 10:33									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Petek: AFAIK you can't build units that you don't have the tech for but you can "reverse engineer" units you somehow aquire. So in your case Deidre wasn't able to build anything else using a Needlejet chassis until she discovered the required tech.
When you are give a unit you don't have the tech for, it's the same. You can build it but you can't use the unresearched parts for another design.

	09-09-2002 10:43									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Todd Hawks Petek: AFAIK you can't build units that you don't have the tech for but you can "reverse engineer" units you somehow aquire. So in your case Deidre wasn't able to build anything else using a Needlejet chassis until she discovered the required tech. When you are give a unit you don't have the tech for, it's the same. You can build it but you can't use the unresearched parts for another design.

Were the Gaians human controlled they could have done so, Todd. Go to the Design Workshop, select the needlejet transport design, change the transport module to Missile Weapon and presto! you have a missile noodle. (Provided you have Synthetic Fuels for Missiles, of course. Otherwise, whatever weapon you have/wish.)

	09-09-2002 17:08									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Todd Hawks Petek: AFAIK you can't build units that you don't have the tech for but you can "reverse engineer" units you somehow aquire. So in your case Deidre wasn't able to build anything else using a Needlejet chassis until she discovered the required tech. When you are give a unit you don't have the tech for, it's the same. You can build it but you can't use the unresearched parts for another design.

Todd, to add to Mongoose's reply, please refer to the first post in this thread. In that example, Morgan did not yet have the tech that allows the cruiser chassis. However, he was able to build a cruiser of a design different than the cruiser that he was given. TKG also cited a case of the AI reverse engineering a subverted unit. It seems that the AI can reverse engineer some units but not others.

	10-09-2002 10:26									#15
	Suffering from ads?

Well,
I stand corrected, it seems. I remember I tried this a long time ago but it didn't work.
Time to get back to SMAXing to test it.

	20-09-2002 08:58									#16
	I have seen this. Inflate your Upload Space

I found myself in a Very Strange Situation a few games back:
I was pacted with Yang and Santiago - not a bad situation - except, they were in Vendetta! - and my territory was between them! Yang was ahead of me technologically and militarily and I was ahead of Santiago. Yang was not at all in a tech-sharing mood.
Here's the funny part:
Yang would transfer units to me at our border "for defense" - units with weapons for which Santiago did not have the tech. I had the border bases supporting only their garrison (two units, nothing else) so I could handle Yang's "gifts". I would march the gifted units all the way across my territory and transfer them to Santiago. She would then march them around my territory and use them to attack Yang.
But that was not all.
Yang was not building any offensive Speeders (he had speeder-based artillery, but he wasn't sharing those). Santiago was building offensive Speeders - with the weapons from the Infantry I gave her that I got from Yang!
What an immensely entertaining game that was!

	21-09-2002 03:56									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: One turn I'm cosying up to Deirdre, about to extract the secret of Centauri Meditation from her, and then Lal wanders in and, oh look, they're combining forces against me.

Is it just me, or can that have sooo much innuendo read into it?

	21-09-2002 05:20									#18
	Support Apolyton

I think it was intended.

	21-09-2002 23:39									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Heh Glad someone noticed. I was beginning to think my corrupted mind was cleaning itself up...

Strangely, that happened on Thinker, whereas on Transcend I hardly ever seem to get combined against - most odd. You'd think it'd be more likely to happen at higher difficulty levels...

	07-07-2004 07:48									#20
	Tired of ads?

Maybe AI doesn't reverse engineer between combat and non-combat, and in the case of non-combat not even between the different equipment.

	12-07-2004 05:41									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Or maybe the AI is just retarded, and thinks that it can relocate a Planet Buster to another base by launching it...