06-09-2002 06:58									#1
	Empireization Tired of ads?

I recently had an idea that might add a lil more flavor to this game. I like the whole corruption/country size idea, but then..how do we get entire worldwide empires like Rome or Brittan? I did some thinking, and decided to go with the old technique the romans used.

Aside from useing the forbiden palce wonder in byzantium ;p the other thing the romans did to reduce corruption was subjugate lesser kingdoms in far off lands. They didn't conquer and replace the goverment, persay..they simply marched up to the palace and said.

"You join our empire, or die"

THe king thinks 'sweet deal, I live, I keep my job, and my kingdom, and come under the protection of the roman republic.'

I think things shouldwork something like that. They made a attempt at this with ALpha Centauri and swearing allegiance. The problem was then you could regrow them to a gigantic size, and they'd still be your bedmate for the rest of the game.

I propose a better done system of 'Empireization'. A system in which after utterly defeating a opponent, if you are under a Republic or Democracy, you can ask them to join your empire. Communism's should have a much higher city cap, to offset the democracy and Republics ability to 'take in' nations. THis is also allowable because ICS is immpossible, becauseby the time communism is researched the world is settled.
Also, if the higher citycap for communism seems to much, then incur a happyness penalty for conquerored citys.

Monarchy and despotism, showing there redundancy, should not allow either forms of empireization.

This would make diplomacy even more intricate, because you yourself could become part of a AI empire. How would this work? Well

You are like the govenor of your kingdom, or province. When the empire gos to war, you go to war, and you have no say. I know in a real republic you'd have a vote, but I don't wanna make this more complicated..You have your own armys. Thank god armys are generic in civ, so that roman infantry look no diffrent then zulu infantry. You baisicly run yourkingdom like you used to, only you lose some of your diplomatic options like trade and such. THe empire does that for you. its kinda like being under a set of set embargos and open routes, mutal protection pact and right of passage.

Now, you don't have to -remain- under foreign rule. You can at anytime choose to 'Revolt'. A foreign nation looking to topple a empire can send a envoy to a province and ask to join them in a revolt. You can do the same. You can also elect to join one, or force someone eles to join you.

Intra-empire diplomacy also adds intracy. You levy a 'empire tax' on all subjugated provinces, all that money gos to you. You need to be shrewd. As long as you hold superiority their kingdoms won't mind being under your rule. If you give back to many citys, levy to low or high a tax, if you are at ar to much and your own armys weaken..your provinces may revolt. Generally though they are more trustworthy then single kingdoms kept in mutal protection pacts because unlike
the AIS now, they would understand the benfits of being under a empire when they're weak.

LIKE- Automatic tech trade. When a province discovers a tech, it automaticly is traded to all other civs.

Automatic resource and luxury trade too.

Central protection- you attack one of us, your attacking all of us.

_________

A kingdom won't join a empire just to get these things, you have to conqeror them or they won't relinquish.

Generally, in order to create empire you must rise head and shoulders above your peers, conquer your neighbors completely and then rebuild them shrewdly, just enough so they don't pose a threat but still provide advantage.

I think this would make the game pretty fun, for me anyway. I like diplomacy and war. OF COurse I could just Dumb this all down and say its just like AC, onlywith a empire tax and automatic resource/tech trade/MPP/ROP amongst the empire.

I'm glad I finnaly had the time to getthis out of my head. lol, now I'v left my idea to the wolves. Tear it apart if it is your desire.

	06-09-2002 10:57									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Very good idea!!
What is strange, though, is that they had just this kind of option in SMAC! They called it a Protectorate, and you could offer it in diplomacy! If the other faction was significantly weaker than yours, and if it looked clear that you might wipe them out, then they'd simply become the equivalent of a Vassal State! This was such a good system that, considering Civ3 is based on the SMAC engine, I can't believe that they didn't keep it in!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	06-09-2002 12:41									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

so many good ideas in SMAC dropped in Civ3....

	06-09-2002 12:55									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Once more I will bemoan the lost things with you all....

I especially miss the government system....



-Moose

	06-09-2002 13:03									#5
	Put an end to popups!

Borrowed thoughts from another thread (which is STILL ongoing)...It's not too early to start thinking about Civilization 4. As long as discussion is...well...discussed, debated, and perhaps deliberated, then the 'poly's can give the developers of the next incarnation of the series a leg up on features. Heck, if they can make a SimCity 4 (EBGames.com has November 18 as release date - Game looks very promising to me based on what I've seen and read), then the Civilization Series will continue on into its next life...and its next life...and its next life...

	06-09-2002 13:25									#6
	Support Apolyton

here are my own thoughts I am borrowing from another thread...heh...

"Game that beats Civ1/2/3 in 7 easy steps....

1. Take Alpha Centauri.....(through in the multiple item diplomacy elements of Civ 3)....SMAC is good for the unit system, the diplomacy system, and the especially the government system (that one is just great).

2. change the it to a historic->modern earth setting....

3. add in culture from civ 3, but remove culture flipping (culture helps assimilate citizens of other civs though)....

4. add small wonders from civ 3.....

5. remove terraformers.....add public works from CtP games...(wooo, no more of that pointless micromanagement, no more time wasted moving workers or watching automated ones move around)....

6. Use a CtP-like combat system...or something similarly advanced.

7. No matter what, the AI can always get better ; )

And there you are, the best Civ game ever! .....too bad it doesn't exist....hopefully someday...."

I'd also add in a more realistic city model...with food centric cities with eventually very low population supplying most of the food for larger industrial/trade cities.

-Moose

	07-09-2002 08:38									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ahh, I dunno, I never liked public works in CtP, and yeah I have played it. I like the lil workers..they give me something to do in peacetime. lol

As for the city model, Its screwed up, nothing like real life, but thats ok I guess..they should still bring back food trucks.

To think about it, they should bring back food trucks NOW, in a patch or something. I want'em dammit, and not have to wait! >.<

	07-09-2002 11:15									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i think its a good idea in principle, but would be hard to apply.. especially in multiplayer, where if your subjugated, whats the point of playing on other than slim hopes of revolting?

what i think would truly work better than the corruption system...

would be if the player doesnt actually build most cities after a certain ancient date, but the cities are already there, waiting to be linked to a nation or empire.

if the cities are all very independant, only waiting to join a cause, then such things like civil war would be easier to add (i hope), and "subjugating" might be easier, because you would essentially be ridding them of their previous rulers, but theyd still be their own people, not suddenly your willing worshippers.

what might be harder is figuring out the expansion system in the early era. say if the continent your on is basically filled with cities by 1000 BC, but most arent allied to any nation, then how would they decide to join you? Maybe threw some diplomacy (we will give you money to join!), maybe threw some force (which would give higher probability for revolt and civil war), maybe culture?

im just brainstorming and pipe-dreamin

	07-09-2002 12:14									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Binnacle Ahh, I dunno, I never liked public works in CtP, and yeah I have played it. I like the lil workers..they give me something to do in peacetime. lol As for the city model, Its screwed up, nothing like real life, but thats ok I guess..they should still bring back food trucks. To think about it, they should bring back food trucks NOW, in a patch or something. I want'em dammit, and not have to wait! >.<

Food Trucks would be very nice....especially if it was done with the current trade system. In your own empire, you could decide you wanted X amount of food transfered from 1 city to another, and you could also ask for food from other empires via trade (which you'd then allocate as you wished). The AI would need a big overhaul to adapt to this though....but it would make the game a lot nicer....that city fully surrounded by mountains and hills would now have insane production, but you'd need a food city to support it's growth. Nice idea though...I'd be happy with a civ game with that.....

As for workers....ugh...I don't mind them so much in the beginning...but when you have 30+ of them (and it can easily go above 100 on larger maps)....they are just a pain to order about...and the automation is only so-so. I wish I could automate some workers to auto-clear forests and jungles, and others to auto-road and railroad (I don't think you can do this, though I've heard some people say you can)...I think I could then handle mining and irrigation as I saw fit....by that I mean it wouldn't annoy me overmuch. It just seems that the worker system can get really insane with micromanagement....which is why I liked the public works system a lot more. It was a nice abstraction for these reasons IMHO.

Ninot:

I really like your idea...it sounds so like it could be done in a pretty simple way in a CivIII-like game...

With culture, it is just like culture flipping....maybe you could even have the option to just have culture flipping with 'neutral' states, the higher your culture, the more they like being part of your country, though government and other things would play a role...that would be pretty neat, I think.

-Moose

	07-09-2002 21:07									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Blue Moose I wish I could automate some workers to auto-clear forests and jungles, and others to auto-road and railroad (I don't think you can do this, though I've heard some people say you can -Moose

shift-F = automate, clear forests only
shift-J = automate, clear jungle only

BEyond the commands for building a stretch of road between two points, there is Ctrl-N, build a trade network. The worker will try to build roads (and posibly RR) between all cities.

	07-09-2002 23:14									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I would vote for some means of sharing food or at least auto balancing to prevent starving. At least in civ2 you caravan food.

	08-09-2002 00:54									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Wormwood shift-F = automate, clear forests only shift-J = automate, clear jungle only BEyond the commands for building a stretch of road between two points, there is Ctrl-N, build a trade network. The worker will try to build roads (and posibly RR) between all cities.

Thanks...that helps a lot. With pressing the shift key to speed up movements, it makes workers not so painful to deal with...though I still like the pw system more.