06-09-2002 23:38									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The Emancipation Proclamation produced a revolutionary change in the society and economy of United States. I would argue the 13th or 14th Amendment was much more of a revolutionary change .

But Reconstruction failed in changing racial relations with the 14th Amendment.

Chegitz and you made a good, valid point, but I think my thesis would provide for a more interesting challenge.
It will be a little more work for me to prove that the Emancipation Proclamation truly did create a revolutionary change.

The 13th Amendment finished what the Emancipation Proclamation began, but the EP was the document that provided a springboard, so to speak.


And Timex, be careful, or I might start investigating your sexual orientation.

	06-09-2002 23:40									#32
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quote: It will be a little more work for me to prove that the Emancipation Proclamation truly did create a revolutionary change.

Well that's true. The EP basically did nothing, so to say it created a revolutionary change you have to look at indirect results.

	06-09-2002 23:48									#33
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Hadrian. argueably one of the greatest roman emperors was as gay as they get. He had a boy that went around with him and he never had any children. When the boy fell off a boat and died Hadrian was so devasted he built a huge Bath house in England in his honor

	06-09-2002 23:48									#34
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The fact that Abraham Lincoln was reelected after having issue the Emancipation Proclamation, shows that many Americans have begun to reconsider their views on race, as well as slavery.

I need to do more research -- I might end up creating a better thesis.

	06-09-2002 23:58									#35
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quote: The fact that Abraham Lincoln was reelected after having issue the Emancipation Proclamation, shows that many Americans have begun to reconsider their views on race, as well as slavery.

Eh... that's a streach to say. I see no causal relationship between the EP and Lincoln's reelection. Most Northerners wanted slavery abolished by that time anyway.

The fact is if the war was going badly Lincoln would have been kicked out. It was the success of the war in 1863-64 that made Lincoln being reelected. The EP had nothing to do with it.

	07-09-2002 01:13									#36
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Hitler.

	07-09-2002 01:31									#37
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Hitler was not gay. He had some wierd sexual habits like having young girls piss on him. But there is no proof he was ever homosexual.

Stalin is another matter...there is alot of speculation he may have been gay

	07-09-2002 01:37									#38
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quote: But Reconstruction failed in changing racial relations with the 14th Amendment.

The racial relations aren't the most important thing of the 14th Amendment. MUCH more imporant was applying the Constitution (especially the Bill of Rights) to the states. That had an immense influence, especially the due process clause.

	07-09-2002 01:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by leftover_crack Stalin is another matter...there is alot of speculation he may have been gay

On the death of his first wife (circa 1921) Stalin remarked, "The only thing human inside me has died." How prophetic he was.

	07-09-2002 02:02									#40
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Stalin? Gay? That isn't true. That man was straight and a nutcase.

	07-09-2002 02:16									#41
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Here is a list I found of Historical Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual folks:

Alexander the Great
*Macedonian Ruler, 300 B.C.
Socrates
*Greek Philosopher, 400 B.C.
Sappho
*Greek Woman Poet, 600 B.C.
Hadrian
*Roman Emperor, 1st-2nd c.
Richard the Lionhearted
*English King, 12th c.
Saladin
*Sultan of Egypt and Syria
Desiderius Erasmus
*Dutch Monk, Philosopher
Francis Bacon
*English statesman, author
Frederick the Great
*King of Prussia
Lord Byron
*English poet, 18th c.
Walt Whitman
*U.S. poet, author, 19th c.
Oscar Wilde
*Irish author, 19th c.
Marcel Proust
*French author, 20th c.
Colette
*French author, 20th c.
Gertrude Stein
*U.S. poet, author, 20th c.
Alice B. Toklas
*U.S. author, 20th c.
Federico Garcia Lorca
*Spanish author, 20th c.
Cole Porter
*U.S. composer, 20th c.
Virginia Woolf
*English author, 20th c.
Leonard Bernstein
*U.S. composer, 20th c.
Pope Julius III
*1550-1555
T.E. Lawrence (likely, but uncertain)
*English soldier, author, 20th c.
Jean Cocteau
*French writer, director, 20th c.
Charles Laughton
*English actor, 20th c.
Marguerite Yourcenar
*Belgian author, 20th c.
Tennessee Williams
*U.S. Playwright, 20th c.
James Baldwin
*U.S. author, 20th c.
Andy Warhol
*U.S. artist, 20th c.
Michelangelo (debatable, IMO)
*Italian artist, 15th c.
Leonardo Da Vinci
*Ital. Artist, scientist, 15th c.
Christopher Marlowe
*Eng. Playwright, 16th c.
Herman Melville
*U.S. author, 19th c.
Horatio Alger, Jr.
*U.S. author, 19th c.
Tchaikovsky
*Russian composer, 19th c.
Willa Cather
*U.S. author, 19th c.
Amy Lowell
*U.S. author, 19th & 20th c.
E.M. Forster
*English author, 20th c.
John M. Keynes
*English economist, 20th c.
Ludwig Wittgenstein
*Australian mathematician, 20th c.
Bessie Smith
*U.S. singer, 20th c.
Noel Coward
*English playwright, 20th c.
Christopher Isherwood
*English author, 20th c.
Pier Paolo Pasolini
*Italian film director, 20th c.
Yukio Mishima
*Japanese author, 20th c.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*U.S. stateswoman, 20th c.
Julius Caesar
*Roman Emperor, 100-44 B.C.
Augustus Caesar (never heard this before)
*Roman Emperor
Harvey Milk
*U.S. politician, 20th c.
Bayard Rustin
*U.S. Civil Rights activist, 20th c.
James I
*English King, 16th-17th c.
Queen Anne (New to me as well)
*English Queen, 18th c.
Marie Antoinette (huh???)
*French Empress, 18th c.
Melissa Etheridge
*U.S. Rock Star, 20th c.
Pope Benedict IX
*1032-1044
Mary Sarton
*U.S. author, 20th c.
Edna Ferber
*U.S. author, 20th c.
Elton John
*English Rock Star, 20th c.
Margaret Fuller
*U.S. writer, educator, 20th c.
Montezuma II (wha????)
*Aztec ruler, 16th c.
Peter the Great (news to me as well)
*Russian Czar, 17th-18th c.
Langston Hughes
*U.S. author, 20th c.
Pope John XII
*955-964
Madame de Stael
*French writer, 17th-18th c.
Martina Navratilova
*U.S. tennis star, 20th c.
Greg Louganis
*U.S. Olympic swimmer, 20th c.
Billie Jean King
*U.S. tennis star, 20th c.
Roberta Achtenburg
*U.S. politician, 20th c.
Barney Frank
*U.S. Congressman, 20th c.
Gerry Studds
*U.S. Congressman, 20th c.
Hans Christian Andersen
*Danish author, 19th c.
Tom Dooley
*U.S. M.D. missionary, 20th c.
J. Edgar Hoover
*U.S. director of the FBI., 20th c.
Frida Kahlo
*Mexican artist, 20th c.
Suleiman the Magnificent
*Ottoman ruler, 15th c.
Rock Hudson
*U.S. actor, 20th c.
Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
*Mexican author, 16th c.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
*U.S. author, 19th c.
Candace Gingrich
*Gay Rights activist, 20th c.
Margarethe Cammermeyer
*U.S. Army Colonel, 20th c.
Zoe Dunning
*U.S. Military Reservist, 20th c.
Tom Waddel
*U.S. M.D., Olympic star, 20th c.
Kate Millet
*U.S. author, 20th c.
Janis Joplin
*U.S. singer, 20th c.
Rudolf Nuryev
*Russian dancer, 20th c.
Waslaw Nijinsky
*Russian dancer, 20th c.
Ernst Röhm
*German Nazi leader, 20th c.
Dag Hammerskjold
*Swedish UN Secretary, 209th c.
Aristotle
*Greek philosopher, 384-322 B.C.
Paula Gunn Allen
*Native American author, 20th c.
Angela Davis
*U.S. political activist, 20th c.
June Jordan
*U.S. author, activist, 20th c.
Rainer Maria Rilke
*German poet, 20th c.
James Dean
*U.S. actor, 20th c.
Montgomery Clift
*U.S. actor, 20th c.
Baron VonSteuben
*German General, Valley Forge
Edward II
*English King, 14th c.

The list seems to have forgotten Voltaire, who was likely Frederick The Great's lover for a period of time. It also omits Elagabalus, Rome's most decadent emperor. It also omits a slew of gay composers, including Camille Saint-Saens, Samuel Barber, Giancarlo Menotti, Franz Schubert, etc.

And considering the inclusion of Michaelangelo, I'd think they'd at least include the possibilities of Newton and Buchanan.

	07-09-2002 02:31									#42
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umm, I remember hearing that FDR's wife was a lesbian (or at least engaged in homosexual sex)

Jon Miller

	07-09-2002 02:32									#43
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Eleanor Roosevelt was certainly a lesbian...hmmm, how could they omit her???

	07-09-2002 02:33									#44
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you forgot

pretty much all greeks for a period of time

Jon Miller

	07-09-2002 03:10									#45
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Suleiman the Magnificent wasn't gay.
Perhaps he was bi; Mehmet the Conqueror (the
one that captured Cople) liked boys as well as half or all Egyptian and Turkish sultans... But Suleiman loved his only wife, a Polish girl in fact, for sure.

	07-09-2002 03:15									#46
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Hitler was most probably bisexual, if not outright gay...and there are good arguments behind this claim.

To back this up, check up on German historian Lothar Matchtan's (sp?) book "The Hidden Hitler" (I think that was the name), published last year or so...

Other than that, Alexander the Great was also bisexual, as well as many other greek/greeklike personas...

	07-09-2002 03:18									#47
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Interesting list, Boris. thanks

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The fact that Abraham Lincoln was reelected after having issue the Emancipation Proclamation, shows that many Americans have begun to reconsider their views on race, as well as slavery. Eh... that's a streach to say. I see no causal relationship between the EP and Lincoln's reelection. Most Northerners wanted slavery abolished by that time anyway. The fact is if the war was going badly Lincoln would have been kicked out. It was the success of the war in 1863-64 that made Lincoln being reelected. The EP had nothing to do with it.

A stretch?? Maybe something like 80% of the reason was indeed due to the success of the war, but to say that there is only one single cause for Lincoln's reelection.
Wouldn't that be a little stretch itself?

Given the virulent racism throughout the 19th century, I would have thought that an American president who abolished slavery through the federal government and gets reelected was indeed part of the social, revolutionary change.
But then again, I have to consider the nadir of race relations from 1880's through 1930's.

Me thinks I might have to create a better thesis.

	07-09-2002 03:30									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy An interesting one is Edward the Confessor, one of England's most famous kings and for a few centuries England's patron saint. His sexuality is queried- some link him to one of Earl Godwin's sons.

Which one? Harold Goodwinson?

	07-09-2002 05:06									#49
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Hitler was most probably bisexual, if not outright gay...and there are good arguments behind this claim. To back this up, check up on German historian Lothar Matchtan's (sp?) book "The Hidden Hitler" (I think that was the name), published last year or so...

There is very little to substantiate this assertion, and Machtan's book relies almost soley along conjecture that would make Pat Robertson seem logical:

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2059222

The simple truth is that we have no evidence of Hitler's sexual nature, which tends to imply asexualism over anything else.

	07-09-2002 05:19									#50
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun The fact that Abraham Lincoln was reelected after having issue the Emancipation Proclamation, shows that many Americans have begun to reconsider their views on race, as well as slavery. I need to do more research -- I might end up creating a better thesis.

Jeff Davis and John Bell Hood did more to reelect the devil incarnate than any Yankee could hope to have. Can't blame Hood too much though, he was continuously stoned off his ass on Laudanum.

McClellan hung his hat on ending the war and letting the south go, then had to reverse himself and commit political hara-kiri after Davis gave away Atlanta.

Lincoln was re-elected based on the sudden, massively favorable shift on the progress of the war, and mass nepotism (mostly Chase's treasury agents), far more than any fundamental philosophy on the part of the northern electorate.

	07-09-2002 05:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Eleanor Roosevelt was certainly a lesbian...hmmm, how could they omit her???

Because it's unsubstantiated. The claim is based on some of her letters to a close friend (who was a lesbian) which would seem to indicate a sexual relationship, except for the fact that she wrote to many people in the same way. She may have been bisexual (she did love her husband), but even that remains unsubstantiated.

	07-09-2002 06:01									#52
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Just an interesting bit i just learned:

Some Roman Emperors were members of a Religous Cult which believed if you loved a young boy and had intercourse and then murdered him you would absorb his lifeforce and live longer.

	07-09-2002 06:05									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Thucydides hmm, from what I understand there's fairly good evidence that Richard the Lion-Hearted was homosexual, if that's any help.

There is more evidence of beastiality (equine) for Richard I.

	07-09-2002 06:05									#54
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"Other than that, Alexander the Great was also bisexual, as well as many other greek/greeklike personas..."


The more I read about the leaders of the time the more it seems like this was some kind of cult...

	07-09-2002 06:15									#55
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For sometime in aient Greece it was cosider normal (for the upper classes) to keep boy sex companian. The companian need to be samller because the only acceptable mode of sex with them was between the thighs. Oral or anal intercouse with them was cosidered a vile perversion. Yet oral intercouse with females (at least prostitutes) was ok.

	07-09-2002 06:27									#56
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A lot of the names on Boris's list are "creative" history and probably weren't gay or bisexual.

At least Michelangelo, DaVinci, Saladin, Suleiman, Frederick the Great and Augustus Caesar were probably neither gay or bi. The Greeks in the list have to be taken with a grain of salt given the cultural traditions that existed in Ancient Greece.

It should be noted that the list surprisingly doesn't have Edward the Second , King of England in the 14th century and he was almost certainly gay. There is also some evidence that James Garfield, President of the US in 1881 was at least bi. The list contains probably too many famous world changing people, and not very many (or any) less famous or infamous figures of history.

	07-09-2002 07:08									#57
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Froma couple of internet sources:

quote: Throughout Buchanan's presidency there were rumors that he was a homosexual. While there is no concrete proof, the facts are pretty striking. Buchanan remained a bachelor his whole life, and for 24 years lived with William Rufus King, a Senator from Alabama who later became vice-president under Franklin Pierce. King was also never married. They spent so much time together many Washington circles referred to them as "the Siamese twins," Andrew Jackson called King "Miss Nancy," and James K. Polk named him "Mrs. James Buchanan." King himself penned long and intimate letters to Buchanan. When appointed minister to France, King wrote to Buchanan, "I am selfish enough to hope you will not be able to procure an associate who will cause you to feel no regret at our seperation." Buchanan later referred to King as "among the best, purest, and most consistent public men I have ever known, and is also a sound judging and discreet fellow," as well as a "very gay, elegant looking fellow." On May 13, Buchanan wrote to a Mrs. Roosevelt about his social life: I am now "solitary and alone," having no companion in the house with me. I have gone a wooing to several gentlemen, but have not succeeded with any one of them. I feel that it is not good for man to be alone; and should not be astonished to find myself married to some old maid who can nurse me when I am sick, provide good dinners for me when I am well, and not expect from me any very ardent or romantic affection.

Here is another promising link which I could not open because geocities is filtered by The Great Firewall of China Perhaps some kind soul will quote the relevent contents here.

quote: www.geocities.com/boybluetoo/rufey.html

	07-09-2002 07:12									#58
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because it's unsubstantiated. The claim is based on some of her letters to a close friend (who was a lesbian) which would seem to indicate a sexual relationship, except for the fact that she wrote to many people in the same way. She may have been bisexual (she did love her husband), but even that remains unsubstantiated.

yah, I know she wanted her husband

that is why I tried to imply unsurity in my post (but I don't know if it came across)

I got it from a book by someone who supported the democrats who was trying toexcuse Clinton's actions by nformation on earlier sexual practices (That is where I also ran into the idea that Buchanan was gay, I think it also suggested that Lincoln was gay too so I took it very lightly)

Jon Miller

	07-09-2002 07:24									#59
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quote: Originally posted by leftover_crack He had some wierd sexual habits like having young girls piss on him.

Well. Really. Who doesn't like that?

	07-09-2002 07:36									#60
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What is the big deal with who is gay or not? Some of that list that was presented is mostly argumentative... and cannot be proven... but who cares who did what with who?