07-09-2002 07:45									#1
	Communism for the Warmonger Increase the size of your Attachments

I've noticed that a number of people really prefer the late game... WW3, as it were.

I was late to enjoy / experience this part of the game; it's only been in the last several months that I've really gone for it, hard.

In playing AU 105, I finally found the joy of communism. I'm sure there are other applications and benefits, but I really like what I came up with.

Late game (i.e., MAs), with a significant tech advantage (i.e., facing Infantry), I invaded the top dog AI civ, Persia. Rather than bombard Jerxes cities down to oblivion, I took most cities at 11-25 pop.

The good news is that when you do this, you get to keep many important non-cultural city improvements, including Marketplaces, Harbors, Courthouses, and even Police Stations.

The bad news is that you are left with BIG pop, including almost overwhelming resistance, and, being on another continent, corruption and waste out the yin-yang.

COMMUNISM TO THE RESCUE!!

Between starving the pop, contributing to fast builds by disbanding obsolete units (excess Arty and old units airlifted in), and commie poprushing (in many cases, you must disbad a number of units before the city has enough shields to poprush), I got every Persian city down to 5 pop or less, where necessary built Temples, Cathedrals, Marketplaces, Courthouses, and Police Stations, and converted back to democracy in 6 turns!! (admittedly, playing Egypt, so minimal anarchy).

Add in some of the surviving city improvements, including Harbors and one Airport, and thus full access to my empire's resources, and the ex-Persian cities were wonderously productive for the continued growth of Egypt.

I know there are other good uses of communism (not that I've much experience), but this application blew me away.

	07-09-2002 09:08									#2
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I like using Communism to do some SERIOUS population reductions in captured cities.

	07-09-2002 10:50									#3
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Yeah, I never understood that before.

LM, any tips beyond what I've laid out? I feel like I'm missing something...

	07-09-2002 15:37									#4
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A strong core can afford to subsidise a few weaker outer cities for a while without hitting its own production too hard, so in addition to the poprushing/popreduction in conquered cities, outlying cities in non-contested areas can be quickly ramped up to WLTK productivity with the temple/(harbour)/mkt/courthouse kit.

Once the job's done, switch back to dem/rep as Theseus described - treating communism as a temporary measure. Used this way, it's ironic that religious civs are best placed to benefit from this instrument. Or perhaps not so ironic, but indicative of a too-high penalty for govt change by non-rel civs.

	07-09-2002 23:44									#5
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I sometimes take large cities in Rep/Dem and hold them. I just garrison lots of troops and starve the pop down to two or one. I will stop the starving if the civ is destroyed. They don't seem to flip back as I have cut the roads and their civ is in decline now and I connect or leave a road to my cities. If the lux sliders is used and you have set all pop to jokers, except resistors, all seems fine. I only hold these cities when other civs would come in and grap the land if I razed. If I have them blocked off, them I raze and forgo the structures.

	07-09-2002 23:49									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Sorry, forgot to mention that, I starved down as well... all pop to jokers, until the conversion back to democracy.

	08-09-2002 01:51									#7
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Another benefit of the Communism is that you don't have to relocate your palace to make far away cities productive.

	08-09-2002 02:16									#8
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Well, corruption and waste in a Communism needs to be more closely looked at. Alexman's equations didn't seem to quite work for me. Communism should really have an improved version of forced labor too, given the age it comes in. Oh well, it can still come in handy.

	08-09-2002 02:31									#9
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67 city civilization. Huge map, fairly well placed FP and Palace (the palace could be better placed).

Democracy:

5193 commerce, 609 lost to corruption.

Communism:

3122 commerce, 422 lost to corruption.

Monarchy:

3238 commerce, 409 lost to corruption.

So it seems like what people say is true...Monarchy is probably a better choice than Communism. I know communism has some benefits, but I think rush buying usually comes in more handy than pop-rushing. At least in my experience. Sort of sad for communism really....the corruption is just a bit too high really. In a communism, every city will have at least 7% commerce corruption. I think that's just a bit wacked (that's wth a police station and courthouse, not counting the number of cities factor).

	08-09-2002 02:45									#10
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That's what I meant by saying that I had never found a use for communism before... monarchy, republic, and democracy are all better in their respective strengths for different circumstances.

But commie poprushing, for only maybe 5-10 turns, is an incredibly powerful tool... the benefits far outweighed what was lost to corruption and waste in my core cities at that point (also, specific to AU 105, those core cities had been so effective that for the moment they had nothing to build but military units, of which I had plenty, so I didn't care).

	08-09-2002 02:54									#11
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Why do people hate foreign nationals so much, the only problem they cause is a bit of war wariness when you go at war with their country, isnt it?

	08-09-2002 03:05									#12
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Xor, I think they also increase the chance of culture flipping (enough to make culture flipping possible even if you have overwhelming cultural power).

	08-09-2002 03:20									#13
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Yeah, and beyond that, I just don;t trust the sneaky buggers.

	09-09-2002 02:31									#14
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I have not used Communism, since Civ2.

	09-09-2002 02:48									#15
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Communism in civ 2 is great.

In civ 3, there is no real benefits to it.

	09-09-2002 03:12									#16
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I've been thinking that communism should have a unique building that reduces corruption futher (and perhaps propoganda as well). It is possible to make such a government unique building currently. Makes sense too, it would be like the secret police.

If you felt communism was still very inferior, you could make the building just cost 10 shields or so, and have no maintainance or give it multiple such buildings. That should be able to clear up such problems.

	09-09-2002 06:15									#17
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Well I think the Police Station was to perform that function, but it is now available to all. Make them automatic when you switch to Commy and not allowed for others and you got it.

	09-09-2002 07:00									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sadly, I don't think you can make a building automatically appear under a certain government unless it was already built. From what I have been told, a gov specific building will deactivate when you are under a different government (and you can no longer build it either). So without further changes to the editor, the best we could manage is a cheap communist specific building. Really, they should have made corruption levels more modifiable.

	09-09-2002 10:04									#19
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Makes the Palace and FP location a hell of a lot less important, doesn't it?

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Sorry, forgot to mention that, I starved down as well... all pop to jokers, until the conversion back to democracy.

When I want to starve a pop down, I have always reflexively converted everyone to entertainers. Can't believe I never thought of it before, but a poster at CFC pointed out that, in starvation mode, might as well change those entertainers to taxmen or scientists -- "bbaws" elegantly put it as "if you are starving them out don't just have entertainers you'll get the same result with scientists or taxmen but their short miserable lives will enrich your opulent lifestyle."

Catt

	09-09-2002 11:18									#20
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Good point Catt. As to the Police Stations, I did not mean to imply we could do it ourself. It would have had to be a game design. As it is now anyone can have Police Stations, if they have discovered communism. Maybe a new building for that gov only, some day. On the other hand does not communism under USSR have about as much corruption as it gets outside dictator?

	09-09-2002 11:59									#21
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Good point Catt. As to the Police Stations, I did not mean to imply we could do it ourself. It would have had to be a game design. As it is now anyone can have Police Stations, if they have discovered communism. Maybe a new building for that gov only, some day. On the other hand does not communism under USSR have about as much corruption as it gets outside dictator?

Probably true (though the USSR also had a very, very bad infrastructure), but why bother having the government if it is basically useless? Sure, there is the very minor use of pop rushing and then switching back. But in most cases Monarchy is a better wartime gov. It's crazy. Remember, this is a gov that you basically don't get until after Democracy (nearly always)....I don't like how the gov choices are more limited in Civ III, especially since Communism is almost a useless government. Besides, the USSR isn't the only example to go from (though admittedly I don't have a lot of knowledge of other communist regimes). Perhaps China's is better. Half of what makes a government work well is how developed the country is.....I can't think of any first world country that was ever a communism...it always seems to be a choice of more backwards countries. That aside though...I just think having communism as a more useful choice is a good idea.

	09-09-2002 16:36									#22
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how about the way it was implemented in Civ2? in communism , if you have WLTKD , a city gets as much trade as a republic/democracy? These days , a democracy is a stampede over anything else, producing a robust economy and manufacturing.

	09-09-2002 22:04									#23
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I am with you, if we have a Gov type, it should have some value tha is unique, otherwise no one will choose it. Pop rushing is of no value by the time you tend to get communism. You can afford to buy things under Rep/Dem. An easy way to have made it useful was the police station. Maybe as I said a new structure called Pulitbeaurea (sp). You can not have it unless under communism.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 12-09-2002 at 10:12

	12-09-2002 02:17									#24
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The Politblah wasn't a building it was the Soviet Cabinet, where all-important decisions were made. I say we should have that WLTKD solution , together with a weakened anti-war movement , like in Republic. It would make a lot of sence. In a happy planned society, efficiency and productivity increased , and enabled the soviets to do some emasing stuff in the 50s and 60s, scientifically and industrially. However, the soviet people were also rather unhappy with the way their government run the war in afghanistan. Actually, when I think about it , it would be a great idea! . alas, I doubt that one could create this in a mod due to the handicapped modding ability in civ, IMO. But in PtW , who knows?

	12-09-2002 10:16									#25
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I know it was a body of people, I just threw out a name for a possible building. I am asking for a game correction, not a user mod. They should have made it worth something or not put it in the game.

	12-09-2002 17:04									#26
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I know , I know. We all want that the game would be great without mods, and the fact that you need a mod to make a game great sux (*cough* CtP *cough* ) They use our advices extremely rarely , though I think that one of mine got through , really. ( that unit that produced leader gets its name changed thingee. )

All in all , there's nothing to expect but a modable stuff. I am not going to play MP , so I don't care , really. It's a real shame that there are no really good governments , like fundamentalism, and communism of Civ3.