08-09-2002 06:54									#1
	Area 25: Theology Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

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I was not going to create this because I think Togas is handling it pretty well, but there is an election coming up. I would like to see how the candidates handle this non-essential issue.

Some civilizations have Theology. There are various ways to obtain it. I would like for this discussion to find the best way. There will be additional information after the turnchat, but discussion can begin now.

If I feel my input is absolutely neccessary, I'll give it. Otherwise, I'll just wait until we acquire Theology to post a thread about what to do after Education.

Have fun.

	08-09-2002 07:31									#2
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One of the most important things to our science trading, will be our excess luxuries. In exactly two turns, we will have all but one square separating us from being connected with Greece.

When we get connected with Greece, we will most likely have some options.

1. Trade all our money, lots of gpt, and some of our dyes to them for theology.

2. Or we could see how much they value an alliance with us against England. I’m thinking; Dyes, alliance with England, a bit of cash(maybe 50)


These are just calculated guesses. Right now, if we give: 216 gold, 28gpt, and an alliance against England, it will get them "close to a deal".


More ideas to come later.

	08-09-2002 07:35									#3
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Try thinking ahead a few turns.

	08-09-2002 07:46									#4
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In order to obtain Theology. I have determined we have 4 reasonable options, ranging from 1 as most conventional to 4 as least conventional.

1. Invade Persia, Yay.

2. In a few turns, Here It Is culture will expand, netting us a Wine. Build a colony with a nearby worker and we have an excess wine to trade to whomever. Greece may like our wine, dyes and gold when we're connected soon.

3. Connect with Germany. Not all that hard, actually, we have to build on 1 mountain squares and 1 or 2 jungle squares to do it. We have 4 workers nearby to do it. I think Germany may give us a deal on something for theology once we get there, perhaps not. Depends on foreign situation. If germany goes to war again, we can use this to our advantage, same deal with the greeks.

4. Accelerate Science to Warp Speed! Peace with Persia, library\road mania. Rush buying librarys and developing infrarstructure a priorty. Added benefit of not having to schlep over to our neighbors for techs. DIA paradies. Not likely.

	08-09-2002 07:49									#5
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I perfer options 1 & 3. Option 4 is from my dreams, but not neccessarily the best way to go about things at all.

	08-09-2002 07:52									#6
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Keep in mind that as minister of science you shold take into consideration what the person before has posted. Many times in Area 25 threads, I am the person whose posts everyone reads. Most others just seems to be in their own little world and posts just their own thoughts at the time. They disreguard what most others post.

	08-09-2002 07:59									#7
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LOL, how couldnt i see this... Apoc was right, i should of been thinking ahead 2 turns!

In two turns we will have a second source of horses near Port Rogue! This could be very useful in tradng for theology. Especially with Persia, i think a Peace Treaty, horses, and some gold could get it.....

We will also, as Thud said, get some wines soon. Wines, dyes, and horses should be enought to win any civ over.

Last edited by trickey on 08-09-2002 at 08:06

	08-09-2002 08:11									#8
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Indeed. On the other hand, public opinion has really determined that war with Persia should go on for another 10 or 20 turns. So I think that we have to work around that schedule. Furthermore, we're not connected with Persia during war, so horses won't work.

I actually didn't notice the horses. It appears that we should have abundant resources to trade away in the near future, and new people to trade with.

A military alliance with greece may be something to consider, but the issue of war is not one decided on easily or quickly.

That leaves conventional bribery with Greece and possibly Germany.

	08-09-2002 08:19									#9
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*music* Wines, Dyes, and Horses, Treaties and Blue Moons, Pots of Gold and Contracts, and a Red Balloon! *music*

(On second thought, let's not elect Thud. Tis a silly fellow )

Seriously, I think that this is where we start a dialogue with the current FM, and get some limits, sense, and which suggestion is acceptable.

At this point I might also poll the public to see how important this is to them, and what price they will pay. Anyone with comments as to what that is to you?

	08-09-2002 08:36									#10
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You two still aren't getting the main reason Theology will be cheaper.

	08-09-2002 10:12									#11
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Here's what the current acting FM thinks about what's been said so far, and what's acceptable in general (Major policies would have to wait until Togas got back, but to help you guys along a bit, here are some general guidelines and my guesses as to what he'd say):

No alliances. Sorry .

No RoPs.

Luxury trades stand a very good chance of being oked. (As long as we still have one of that luxury).

Resource trades could be considered.

Longer war with Persia is an option, but this thread wouldn't be the place to decide it. Sadly, that does restrain how much you can do until more decisions habe been made, but you can plan ahead with the knowledge that that decision could go either way.

If you need any more general guidelines, I'd be happy to post, at least for hypothetical plans. Also, if it makes you feel any better, I'm not totally sure what Apoc's talking about either (though I haven't open the game) -- I've got a good guess, but that mainly comes from guessing how he thinks based on his past actions . Also, most of the options that come to my mind have been brought forward in this thread... so far, we've seen some very good recomendations from our two canidate Science Ministers. Great work, guys.

-- adaMada

Afterthought: Apoc, I'm gonna PM you and see if I'm right on my guess -- lol, the curiosity's killing me.

	08-09-2002 13:08									#12
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I do know. Rather obvious.

But the discussion so far is very interesting. I am enjoying this very much. It shows that both of our candidates are some creative people, who do have a fairly good understanding of certain game mechanics.

Good luck. Gonna be a close race I suspect.

	08-09-2002 13:41									#13
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IMHO the cheapest way to acquire Theology is through Persia. Surrendering civs offer EXCELLENT discounts on techs in exchange for peace and we can't possibly give those up and buy Theology from someone else.
As for resource and luxury trade, we will soon be able to trade with France, Greece, Rome, Russia, Germany (if we implement one of WhiteBandit's plans) and Persia (if we dig a road to Tyre). Those trade routes will provide us with gpt which will cover the costs of Theology, whomever we buy it from.

-- Rather off-topic --
It would be great if we could acquire a source of iron and then sell it to a civ that will pay lots of money for it but won't actually pose a threat to us, such as Russia. One way of acquiring a second iron resource is through conquering Antioch and then connecting it to the rest of our empire. Another is by establishing a town here (sorry, can't attach images for some reason) and then connecting it, either through the mountains (a long and laborious work, surely you agree) or through Avignon (requires digging two desert tiles, meaning this is the ultra-fast route).

Last edited by Shiber on 08-09-2002 at 14:26

	08-09-2002 19:28									#14
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I was wrong about Greece tech whoring.

Persia is willing to sell though.

adaMada was right too

	09-09-2002 08:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber It would be great if we could acquire a source of iron and then sell it to a civ that will pay lots of money for it but won't actually pose a threat to us, such as Russia. One way of acquiring a second iron resource is through conquering Antioch and then connecting it to the rest of our empire. Another is by establishing a town here (sorry, can't attach images for some reason) and then connecting it, either through the mountains (a long and laborious work, surely you agree) or through Avignon (requires digging two desert tiles, meaning this is the ultra-fast route).

Shiber,
Should that source of iron become connected, and if you can come up with another Civ to trade it too that we can ensure won't be of any harm to us, you should feel free to propose a trade to the Foreign Minsitry. If there are real benefits, there really is no chance of this coming back and biting us, and our other source of Iron is secure (I remember once getting into a war and loosing one source of iron, only to get screwed over because I'd already traded the other source away and cuoldn't end the deal) then I'd be for such a plan. Above all, the Foreign Ministry (at least with the current leadership) apprecaites suggestions and plans from the public, and yours are especially valued as they tend to be rather good .

-- adaMada

	09-09-2002 16:33									#16
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A voice from outside the democracy game floats in:

What's the state of play with the Sistine chapel? The value of the tech seems to drop when the wonder assosciated with that tech is built (it certainly does in the case of things like e.g. Music theory, which is of no earthly use beyond building Bach's). If the chapel is close to being built somewhere, then it is probably worth waiting until it is built before buying the tech, to keep the price a bit lower.

I'll have to go and check what kind of discount is available in this case.

	11-09-2002 08:15									#17
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Also, you are leaving vulture out in the cold.

That isn't good.

	12-09-2002 06:53									#18
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Tricky, Thud, no more thoughts?

I'm not trying to push you, but vulture does await an answer .

-- adaMada

	12-09-2002 06:56									#19
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I always tried to answer all questions in Area 25 threads, even if they weren't tech related because everything relates to tech.

	12-09-2002 14:22									#20
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I found the time to look things up for myself. No-one appears to be building the Sistine Chapel (I found out where the save was ). And a quick bit of research showed that the change in the cost of theology is negligible when the Sistine Chapel is built. For three techs I give the price before the wonder is built, and then after. Only one of them (music theory) is only of use for building the wonder.

Literature 163 158
Theology 961 954
Music theory 638 9

The change for necessary techs (or ones that have some use aside from the wonder) is tiny, while (as we all know) a tech that is only valuable for the wonder is allows is essentially valueless when that wonder is built.

	12-09-2002 23:24									#21
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I think that at this point, as Shiber said, the only reasonable way to get Theology is to go via a peace settlement with Persia. I think that we can gain the upper hand, take a few cities, and they will sue for peace with whatever they have, including Theology and any other techs.

Of course, I think my original choice 4 will have to be implemented in the future, beyond our current set of wars, and to a lesser, more gradual degree. As you can see from Vulture's list, the difference between the cost for literature and the cost of theology is most significant, and this situation is only going from bad to worse.