13-09-2002 07:45									#91
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I wasn't aware that the IRA bombed anything in the name of the Christian God.

Do they bomb stuff? Of course! I'd not deny that in a heartbeat!

Do their bombings carry religious overtones?

Not that I've ever seen, heard, or read about, but if you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be most curious to see it and be proved incorrect.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: I've also yet to see any instances of people dancing and celebrating in the street, post IRA bombing, tho admittedly, I've not gone hunting for it. My gut tho, tells me its just not there.

	13-09-2002 07:58									#92
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You just shut your eyes and say 'nyah, nyah' to prevent the truth from reaching you, right?

IRA didn't carry religious overtones . Does the fact that they are Catholics and the Northern Irish are Protestants mean anything to you?

	13-09-2002 08:04									#93
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yes....they were of a different religion than those on the other side of the fence.

The fundamental difference is that they didn't go in guns blazing in the name of God.....unlike the variety of jihads (and we've seen a whoooole lot of them from the ME....seems like every week for a while there, there was some splinter group declaring a jihad on some d@mn body), and after the dust cleared, you didn't see masses of people out dancing in the streets celebrating. Or did I just miss that?

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 08:12									#94
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quote: The fundamental difference is that they didn't go in guns blazing in the name of God

You know nothing about the conflict in Northern Ireland do you?

	13-09-2002 08:18									#95
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So Islam was spread through violence -- just as Christianity was spread through violence up until the early 20th century.

Look at European colonialism of Africa in the late 19th century -- become Christian, or be shot.
Of course, many other Africans were simply enslaved on rubber plantations in order to administer "benefits" of Christianity to these people.

	13-09-2002 16:35									#96
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What I am saying is that the core of the IRA's conflict involved getting Great Britain out of Northern Ireland. That smacks of political motives involving who should govern, not religious ones (tho in this case, the two were clearly somewhat intertwined....nonetheless, the struggle has NEVER been cast as a religious one at the core....the IRA's stated goals have always been, so far as I know, to drive the British from Northern Ireland, not because they were of a differing religion, but because they didn't belong there. In case you didn't realize, the British aren't mentioned in the bible, and their presence--or not--in Northern Ireland doesn't have much to do with the Christian faith in general.

Now....contrast that opinion with that of Muslim splinter groups, many of whom have declared war on all of Christiandom, and have said that they won't be happy until the entire western world burns. Notice any difference? Any difference at all?

So....since the IRA's attacks are not religiously based at the core, my contention was, and still is, that they are NOT a counter-example to the one I first gave. Further, you have yet to provide me a link showing mass thousands of people dancing in the streets and celebrating after an IRA bombing attack.

Simply put then, the IRA's activities are NOT comparable to those Muslim splinter groups who blow things up in the name of Allah, and cause riotous celebrations in the streets afterwards.

What part of that is so difficult to understand?

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 16:47									#97
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Vel is correct, the IRA hapen to be catholic(99% anyway)
and the British protestant(80% anyway) if the entire British nation converted to catholicsim overnight the republicans would still want the british out.

The IRA are much more similar to old style palestinian terrorism which was secular in its aims(although there were religious elements to it.)

	13-09-2002 17:18									#98
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quote: Now....contrast that opinion with that of Muslim splinter groups, many of whom have declared war on all of Christiandom, and have said that they won't be happy until the entire western world burns. Notice any difference? Any difference at all?

Well if you don't like that example, what about the Knights Templar? The Jesuit Order? Those were definetly Christian based, spreading the word of God, and killing anyone that gets in the way.

quote: Now....contrast that opinion with that of Muslim splinter groups, many of whom have declared war on all of Christiandom, and have said that they won't be happy until the entire western world burns. Notice any difference? Any difference at all?

Which is a total non-issue and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

quote: if the entire British nation converted to catholicsim overnight the republicans would still want the british out.

I SERIOUSLY doubt it. That makes the issue religious at the core. If Britain was Catholic, you wouldn't have half of the 'atrocities'. The New Model Army would have never tryed to destroy the Catholics. Maybe the Potato Famine might not have ended up so bad, etc. It is BECAUSE of the inherant differences in religion that things have gotten where they are.

Frankly, I'd compare the IRA to Hamas, or as Stinger has said, the PLO.

	13-09-2002 17:24									#99
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Yes the original problems had a lot to do with religion, Cromwells boys were puritans and engaged int he sort of religuos atrocities that were common in europe during the 17th century.

Now though the problem is more one of politics. Most republican and loyalist terrorist would be hard pressed to come up with the main differences between their religions.

	13-09-2002 18:04									#100
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I see...so the fact that Muslim splinter groups have declared their dissatisfaction with all of Christiandom (dissatisfaction to the point of bombings and repeated terror attacks, I might add), and today, there are no such corallory groups returning the favor has nothing to do whatsoever with the issue at hand....that being, the fundamental differences between the two religions, and those who would paint a "kinder, gentler face" onto Islam?

I would submit that perhaps it is YOU who go Nyah, Nyah, and not let the truth sink in.

One of these religions is not like the other....care to guess which one is the standout?

The Knights Templar and Jesuits are actively blowing up buildings where, again? And these result in celebrations in the streets afterwards? I admit that I don't watch as much news as I should, but this is news to me!

Show me a modern Christian corollary to Muslim terrorist groups blowing up civilians in cafes and prompting street celebrations afterwards, and you will prove me wrong. Show me anything else, and you're playing smoke and mirrors games.

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 19:18									#101
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You really don't get it. You try to make a distinction by saying 'MODERN' because you know the history of Christianity is much bloodier than the history of any other religion. Because today's Christians have seen the light that means that they weren't bad in the past. Please

And the Knights Templar (and Hospitalier) along with the Jesuits massacred many non-Christians. Hell, the Christians like to kill off themselves and forget it if you were declared a heretic, like the Albegensians.

And apparently you can't process facts. You seem to think that the Muslim terrorist groups are against anyone Christian. It shows that your grasp on the facts is tenuous at best.

quote: so the fact that Muslim splinter groups have declared their dissatisfaction with all of Christiandom (dissatisfaction to the point of bombings and repeated terror attacks, I might add), and today, there are no such corallory groups returning the favor has nothing to do whatsoever with the issue at hand....that being, the fundamental differences between the two religions, and those who would paint a "kinder, gentler face" onto Islam?

You damn well bet your ass! Once again you try to assert 'MODERN' to cover your ass against charges that Christians were bloody barbians for most of their history. It is interesting that as the West turns AWAY from Christianity you don't have masscres by Christian groups.

Perhaps it was Christianity all along that was violent and made Europe into a very violent place?

	13-09-2002 19:23									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The fundamental difference is that they didn't go in guns blazing in the name of God You know nothing about the conflict in Northern Ireland do you?

Isn't the root of it the fact that the UK controls Belfast and Northern Ireland?

It sounds the same as Israel occupying Palestine.

There is a slight difference. The IRA doesn't have much backing compared to the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. ad nauseum.

Religion isn't the true cause for these conflicts. It's territory. Religion is simply a rallying cry and it always has been. Ask one of the extremists as to why they are against Israel's existance. Usually they say, "Israel is agressive towards us. And that is Palestine, our home." The Palestinians were removed from present-day Israel to make room for the Jews. No wonder they're pissed. And that's all there is to it.

Even if the Qu'ran didn't say to kill every infidel you see with a human bomb, but said, "Be nice to everyone," these conflicts would still exist. MAYBE in a more benign form, but they would still be there.

	13-09-2002 19:29									#103
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quote: Originally posted by dunk Isn't the root of it the fact that the UK controls Belfast and Northern Ireland? It sounds the same as Israel occupying Palestine. There is a slight difference. The IRA doesn't have much backing compared to the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. ad nauseum. Religion isn't the true cause for these conflicts. It's territory. Religion is simply a rallying cry and it always has been. Ask one of the extremists as to why they are against Israel's existance. Usually they say, "Israel is agressive towards us. And that is Palestine, our home." The Palestinians were removed from present-day Israel to make room for the Jews. No wonder they're pissed. And that's all there is to it. Even if the Qu'ran didn't say to kill every infidel you see with a human bomb, but said, "Be nice to everyone," these conflicts would still exist. MAYBE in a more benign form, but they would still be there.

Its quite different, over 300 years ago scotish puritans settled in Ulster, they probably shouldn't have been allowed to bu they did. Now in the present they want to remain Briitsh, there are more of people wanting to remain British than who want to join the Republic.

Its a question of self determination. In some respects Ulster is an artificial construct that shouldn't have been created but it was and the question now is how to resolve the differences peacefuly.

	13-09-2002 19:39									#104
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No....don't get me wrong...I get what you're saying, and I readily acknowledge that Christians have had more than their share of blood. The key thing tho, is in the past, and in any case, I have *yet* to see a link from you disproving my first statement.

The most telling thing to me is this:

If a splinter Christian group bombed a cafe full of people in the name of the Christian God, the Pope, and every other prominent leader of the Christian world would come out *strongly* against such actions, declare a day of mourning, offer to help those suffering, etc., etc. Christians the world over would be expressing their outrange and offering assistance.

When a bomber in the ME goes into a cafe in Israel and blows up a cafe filled with innocent people in the name of Allah, we get as a response:

Dancing in the streets and celebrations.

Fundamental difference, wouldn't you say?

If you disagree with this, then show me the link. Show me some footage of Christian soldiers of the faith bombing cafes full of innocent people and celebrations erupting after the fact. And, since we're talking about current events here (the premise of the whole discussion centers around current events....the main reason I put the "modern" distinction in my last post btw), keep it current.

So show me!

I'll wait right here, 'k?

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 19:39									#105
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Almost the same.

It's just older than the Israel - Palestine conflict.

	13-09-2002 19:40									#106
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quote: Isn't the root of it the fact that the UK controls Belfast and Northern Ireland?

Yes, but you have to ask yourself why the Irish hate the Brits so much and vice versa, and that comes from religion and the things done in the name of religion. Same with Israel/Palestine. If both sides were Jews or Muslims, you wouldn't have nearly the acrimony.

	13-09-2002 19:46									#107
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quote: Originally posted by dunk Almost the same. It's just older than the Israel - Palestine conflict.

Its not in the same league.

One way to make it in the same league would be for the UK to pull out completley. Ulster would decalre independence rather than be part of the republic and there would be a civil war.

	13-09-2002 19:50									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Isn't the root of it the fact that the UK controls Belfast and Northern Ireland? Yes, but you have to ask yourself why the Irish hate the Brits so much and vice versa, and that comes from religion and the things done in the name of religion. Same with Israel/Palestine. If both sides were Jews or Muslims, you wouldn't have nearly the acrimony.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

For the majority of people in mainland UK there is no division on catholic/protestant lines. There is no hatred of the Irish, and i'm pretty sure the Irish do not hate the British.

There used to be but there isn't anymore.

The conflict was originaly religious, it is now political with the opposite sides happening to be of differing religions.

	13-09-2002 20:06									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Isn't the root of it the fact that the UK controls Belfast and Northern Ireland? Yes, but you have to ask yourself why the Irish hate the Brits so much and vice versa, and that comes from religion and the things done in the name of religion. Same with Israel/Palestine. If both sides were Jews or Muslims, you wouldn't have nearly the acrimony.

I disagree.

The US fought a war with Britain over territory and self-determination 1775-1783. Both sides were of similar religion as almost all US colonists were British. Granted there were no car bombs and whatnot, but the animosity was there.

The British and Irish dislike each other because wars have been fought over the Emerald Isle. PERIOD. The Irish farmer who gets conscripted to defend his home from the English army doesn't care whether they're christian, buddhist, or unitarians. They're coming to burn his house down. And they did burn many houses down. Religion has little to do with the animosity from that.
He tells his children to watch out for the English, for they may decide that they own Ireland again some day and come back to burn your house down. the British dislike the Irish because they continually insisted that they were not British subjects. (How arrogant of them!) Over the centuries, the initial cause is distorted and only the hatred remains.

If you were told to leave your home because Bill has to move in, how would you feel? Would you care whether Bill was the same religion as you? I think not. You would look at what used to be your home and wonder who has the authority to tell you to leave so another can live there?

Germany and France have fought over Alsace-Lorraine many times throughout the years while being of the same religion. Still the two countries are leary of one another.

England and France fought the "Hundred Years War" over territory in France. Still the people of these two countries are somewhat distrustful of each other. Many other wars have been fought between these two.

Jihad or Holy War is a farce. It is a recruiting ploy. "Kill the Infidel Jew!" "Death to America!" are not there because we are Jewish and Christian respectively. It's because we occupy their homes and meddle in their affairs. The Muslim nations oppose Israel because they fear Israel will attempt to expand and they occupy Palestine. The Muslim nations oppose the US because we back Israel, threaten to invade soveriegn nations in the region because we disapprove of their government, and label them or their neighbors as part of an "Axis of Evil".

Isreal's existance is new. The conflict is new. Maybe hundreds of years from now, Palestinians will live in Israel peacefully. Maybe Jews will live in Palestine peacefully and no one will kill each other.

Religion can fan the flames, it does not create them.

	13-09-2002 20:11									#110
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Its not in the same league. One way to make it in the same league would be for the UK to pull out completley. Ulster would decalre independence rather than be part of the republic and there would be a civil war.

I contend that it is.

The people are fighting over the future of their homes. The people in Ulster occupy what extreme Irish beleive should be a part of Ireland.

The people in Israel are fighting over the future of their homes. The people in Israel occupy what extreme Muslims beleive should be Palestine.

Slightly different, yes, but the same root casue. One side says, "This is my home and I like it the way it is." The other side says, "All your base are belong to us."

	13-09-2002 20:12									#111
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Northern Ireland is NOT about land: at least, not like Israel/Palestine is. Yes, the Catholics would like all the Protestants to emigrate to the British mainland, and the Protestants would like all the Catholics to emigrate to Eire, but that's as far as it goes. The Plantation of Ulster happened centuries ago and was a gradual process: they're not fighting over land rights like the Israelis and Palestinians are. They don't have major disputes about who owns each plot of land.

It's a clash of cultures: primarily, a clash of religions. The Protestants don't want to be ruled by Papists: they view the Pope as the AntiChrist and regularly burn effigies of him. This hatred is the sole reason why Ireland was partitioned: the British wanted to grant independence to all of Ireland, but the Protestants of Ulster threatened a genocidal war, the ethnic cleansing of Ulster's Catholic population.

The fundamentalists among the Protestants work hard to keep that hatred alive: they define their identity by it. Hence the Orange Order, and the interminable celebrations of battles and marches.

Of course, they are the majority (60%). So, under the rules of democracy, their will prevails and Ulster remains British. But the reason the minority Catholic population don't accept it (as other religious minorities do elsewhere) is because of the sectarian tension. Religion is the badge that each side identifies with: if Catholics and Protestants dare to marry, both get murdered. The school system is apartheid, with Protestant and Catholic schools and near-total segregation.

For centuries, Protestants and Catholics have killed each other in the name of God. Historically, it's mostly been Protestants killing Catholics, trying to exterminate the evil of "Papism" (e.g. by killing ALL Catholic priests). Now that the Catholics hold most of Ireland, the IRA want to drive the Protestants into the sea. Both sides bear huge grudges against each other, this is all about vengeance for battles and atrocities hundreds of years old.

Otherwise, they are the same people. The Ulstermen came from Scotland, and the Scots came from Ireland. There is no racial difference and no cultural difference of any significance: except religion.

	13-09-2002 20:13									#112
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quote: Originally posted by dunk I disagree. The US fought a war with Britain over territory and self-determination 1775-1783. Both sides were of similar religion as almost all US colonists were British. Granted there were no car bombs and whatnot, but the animosity was there. The British and Irish dislike each other because wars have been fought over the Emerald Isle. PERIOD. The Irish farmer who gets conscripted to defend his home from the English army doesn't care whether they're christian, buddhist, or unitarians. They're coming to burn his house down. And they did burn many houses down. Religion has little to do with the animosity from that. He tells his children to watch out for the English, for they may decide that they own Ireland again some day and come back to burn your house down. the British dislike the Irish because they continually insisted that they were not British subjects. (How arrogant of them!) Over the centuries, the initial cause is distorted and only the hatred remains. If you were told to leave your home because Bill has to move in, how would you feel? Would you care whether Bill was the same religion as you? I think not. You would look at what used to be your home and wonder who has the authority to tell you to leave so another can live there? Germany and France have fought over Alsace-Lorraine many times throughout the years while being of the same religion. Still the two countries are leary of one another. England and France fought the "Hundred Years War" over territory in France. Still the people of these two countries are somewhat distrustful of each other. Many other wars have been fought between these two. Jihad or Holy War is a farce. It is a recruiting ploy. "Kill the Infidel Jew!" "Death to America!" are not there because we are Jewish and Christian respectively. It's because we occupy their homes and meddle in their affairs. The Muslim nations oppose Israel because they fear Israel will attempt to expand and they occupy Palestine. The Muslim nations oppose the US because we back Israel, threaten to invade soveriegn nations in the region because we disapprove of their government, and label them or their neighbors as part of an "Axis of Evil". Isreal's existance is new. The conflict is new. Maybe hundreds of years from now, Palestinians will live in Israel peacefully. Maybe Jews will live in Palestine peacefully and no one will kill each other. Religion can fan the flames, it does not create them.

I agree with nearly everything, yes its about territory but in the case if Ireland for years the british thought thay could do what they wanted because the irish were catholic. This genreated hostility and resentment which eventualy transcended any religious differences.

	13-09-2002 20:23									#113
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I agree with Jack the Bodiless. The conflict has significant religious undertones. The Irish were Catholic, which is why the British considered them lesser people.

	13-09-2002 20:32									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I agree with Jack the Bodiless. The conflict has significant religious undertones. The Irish were Catholic, which is why the British considered them lesser people.

The Catholic church condem every IRA attack, those funny little churches the protestants go to in NI codem attacks by loyalist terrorists. I don't see the same codemnation from Islamic clerics.

Yes the 2 sides are different religions yes there are sectarian divisions. However the conflict today is not religious like the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, neither side pretends they are in some holy land.

The 2 sides hate each other because of what their grandparents did,not becasue of disagreements over the role of eucharist, or whether contraception should be allowed

	13-09-2002 20:42									#115
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Amen! (well...it seemed an appropriate thing to say....)

The key difference here is that there is no sense of outrage from Islamic priests over bombings and the celebrations that sometimes (often?) follow them. And that lack of condemnation is the same thing as tacit approval.

There's your difference, and the point I was driving at.
-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 20:47									#116
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I agree with nearly everything, yes its about territory but in the case if Ireland for years the british thought thay could do what they wanted because the irish were catholic. This genreated hostility and resentment which eventualy transcended any religious differences.

Hmmm. I simply feel that religion is not the cause of any conflict, but just a difference that makes them worse.

	13-09-2002 20:53									#117
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I agree that Christian churches on both sides comdemn the violence in Ulster.

However, religion is still the dividing issue. Why else are mixed-faith couples murdered? Why else are scoolkids segregated by religion?

If a Catholic family moved to Ulster from somewhere else in Europe, their kids would have to go to a Catholic school. And if they later marry Protestants, they risk execution. Even though THEIR grandparents were not involved in atrocities.

	13-09-2002 20:58									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless I agree that Christian churches on both sides comdemn the violence in Ulster. However, religion is still the dividing issue. Why else are mixed-faith couples murdered? Why else are scoolkids segregated by religion? If a Catholic family moved to Ulster from somewhere else in Europe, their kids would have to go to a Catholic school. And if they later marry Protestants, they risk execution. Even though THEIR grandparents were not involved in atrocities.

Oh i agree its a problem, but in some respects the people have forgotten what the difference is. Working class protestants and catholics in Belfast(who are the one the terrorists recruit) have far more in common with each other than they do with middle calss people of their own religion.

In some parts of NI religion is not an issue and people do live in mixed communities, these are not particularly newsworthy. Also these communities are generally not good recruiting territories and the IRA/UVF etc tend to ignore them and so there are no punishment beatings/riots either.

	13-09-2002 21:01									#119
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Right....but part one of your own statement, Jack, bears out my point. The difference between the two religions we're talking about at the core (how Islam differs from Christianity), is that there IS no sense of outrage expressed by the clerics of Islam when there are attacks and bombings.

On the other hand, there are strong condemnations when attacks occur in Northern Irelanld.

There are street parties when jews get blown to bits in Israel.

There are no such parties in Ireland.

That's a huge, telling difference, and it makes me firmly believe that the "kinder, gentler" face of Islam is a sham and a farce.

If it were not so, then we should expect strong condemnations for terrorist acts by the Islamic leadership, yes?

But where are those condemnations?

Where are they indeed?

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 22:44									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless However, religion is still the dividing issue. Why else are mixed-faith couples murdered? Why else are scoolkids segregated by religion?

Because religion has become the rallying cry for the conflict. How can we kill people who are the same as us?

quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless If a Catholic family moved to Ulster from somewhere else in Europe, their kids would have to go to a Catholic school. And if they later marry Protestants, they risk execution. Even though THEIR grandparents were not involved in atrocities.

Again, religion is the rallying cry. It makes the conflict worse. If no one gave a flying crap about religion, maybe this could all be settled with a bargaining table rather than car bombs. In either case, it's still a conflict based on the fact that the Ulsterians settled in Ireland and don't want to become part of Ireland. Not all conflicts involve car bombs and terrorists. Some involve court cases and international agreements.

Second, how many Irish are protestant? Very few. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If someone is Catholic, they will probably identify more with the Irish than the Ulsterians. This may or may not be true in reality, but that's what they beleive. I have never said that religion is not a negative factor in this conflict, but it is not the cause. This could have been solved long ago if the Irish were protestant or the English catholic, but neither of those are ture, so the conflict has gotten worse than what is really was or should have been.

It's much easier to rally people to your cause if you say they are fighting some great evil. And what do people firmly beleive in? Their religion and their god. Why do you think the US is called "The Great Satan" by extreme Muslims? Because then people go, "I don't like Satan, let's kill him." It's so much easier to convince someone to kill Satan than to kill that guy in the blue car who goes to work every morning, loves his wife and kids, and likes to go fishing on Saturdays.

The English and Irish had been fighting long before there was such a thing as a "protestant". Why? Mostly because England wanted to subjugate Ireland. The Irish resented the fact that they were ruled at times by a king who was not of their heritage and lineage. Don't give me this stuff about protestant vs catholic. The English disliked the Irish because they were Irish and didn't willingly submit to English rule. And the Irish disliked the English because they claimed dominion over them whenever they felt like it.