09-09-2002 02:24									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "I feel lives hold equal weight regardless of nationality. Therefore I believe the deaths of innocent civilians in Afghanistan itself afterwards was a greater tragedy as more died. Just my opinion" Yes, but nobody in the US is celebrating the lives of innocents lost in Afghanistan.

I'd say there are a lot of t-shirts and bumper stickers which disagree, which seem to delight in the deaths of Afghanis.

	09-09-2002 02:36									#32
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	09-09-2002 02:40									#33
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i'm not going to say innocent people dont die when america attacks. they do.

but we dont outright go to attack the innocent. we have military intentions in all our attacks. what those f*cking fundies did was directed at people that most likely had nothing to do with any of the problems in the region.

granted, they also hit the pentagon. that attack (although still trecherous) would have been more "acceptable" (a loose use of the term) than a direct attack at the citizens.

my dad didn't give 2 sh*ts about anything anyone could use to justify the attacks. he just wanted to goto work and make money to support his family. and they killed him. a civilian. a man doing his job. dilebrately. with malice. for so reason other than to create a scene for the media.

well i'll give a mighty f*ck you to anyone who even TRIES to justify the WTC attack. they are the lowest scum of the earth.

no, i correct myself. those who ACTUALLY SUPPORT THEM AFTER THE FACT are the lowest scum of the earth. I'd say "bomb the meeting" if i didn't think that isnt enough of a punishment for the people.

	09-09-2002 02:41									#34
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX i'm not going to say innocent people dont die when america attacks. they do. but we dont outright go to attack the innocent.

I didn't say that. I was just saying that those civilians dying in the aftermath was an even greater tragedy.

	09-09-2002 02:46									#35
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couldn't this be construed as harboring terrorists?

do we need to do some routine bombing runs over the UK?

	09-09-2002 02:46									#36
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If I was going to try to see the point of view of the people at this conference, I would mention that there were a not insignificant amount of american posters right here at apolyton who posted "Nuke all the sand niggers" and comments like that on the evening of Sept 11th.

My point being that, if an individual feels that some terrible crime has been exacted on their country, it is entirely possible for that person to suspend rational thought and advocate a completely dissproportionate response.


Can I also mention that I am in no way comparing the deliberate attacks against civilians on september the 11th, with the accidental, "collateral" (sp?) deaths of various western campaigns in the middle east - I am simply dealing with the feeling or perception that some terrible tragedy has befallen your nation due to a group of people or a nation.

	09-09-2002 02:47									#37
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon I didn't say that. I was just saying that those civilians dying in the aftermath was an even greater tragedy.

noted, but i wasn't directly addressing you. i'm just replying to the initial thread posts.

sorry for any confusion.

	09-09-2002 02:48									#38
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Ah, that's ok then. No-one shall dispute me!

	09-09-2002 02:50									#39
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon I'd say there are a lot of t-shirts and bumper stickers which disagree, which seem to delight in the deaths of Afghanis.

No, those are delighting in the death of the taliban.

It's a bit like saying because you hate israel, you hate jews.

	09-09-2002 02:55									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant If I was going to try to see the point of view of the people at this conference, I would mention that there were a not insignificant amount of american poster right here at apolyton who posted "Nuke all the sand niggers" and comments like that. My point being that, if an individual feels that some terrible crime has been exacted on their country, it is entirely possible for that person to suspend rational thought and advocate a completely dissproportionate response. Can I also mention that I am in no way comparing the deliberate attacks against civilians on september the 11th, with the accidental, "collateral" (sp?) deaths of various western campaigns in the middle east - I am simply dealing with the feeling or perception that some terrible tragedy has befallen your nation due to a group of people or a nation.

noted as well.

but the american response was made long after muslim extremists made similar statements.

was it Saddam or OBL that said "I will make no difference between an American Civilian and an member of the armed forces" (probably a misquote).

sure, many civilians in america may be all gung-ho about "nuking all the sand niggers" (i admit i was immediately afterwards, my paki-american friend slapped some sense into me), but you dont see someone like bill gates financing a nuclear strike against them. and there's really no public support for it (i think), no matter what people say.

I wonder, if you started a fund for nuking the sand niggers if people would donate. Would be an interesting exercise.

anyway, that always happens during a war. remember the american ww2 propaganda posters? "the only good jap is a dead jap?" it's the same basic concept, only we have a little more control over ourselves.

	09-09-2002 03:13									#41
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quote: noted as well. but the american response was made long after muslim extremists made similar statements. was it Saddam or OBL that said "I will make no difference between an American Civilian and an member of the armed forces" (probably a misquote). sure, many civilians in america may be all gung-ho about "nuking all the sand niggers" (i admit i was immediately afterwards, my paki-american friend slapped some sense into me), but you dont see someone like bill gates financing a nuclear strike against them. and there's really no public support for it (i think), no matter what people say. I wonder, if you started a fund for nuking the sand niggers if people would donate. Would be an interesting exercise. anyway, that always happens during a war. remember the american ww2 propaganda posters? "the only good jap is a dead jap?" it's the same basic concept, only we have a little more control over ourselves.

Firstly, can I thankyou for such a well thought through and rational response. Their are many here who would have dismissed me as some sort of "Fundamentalist Sympathiser" or "Apologist" for the comments I made.

My only response would be to reiterate the fact that my point was concentrating on the perception of a terrible, unjust attack.

Yes, the attack on civilians in the world trade centre cannot be justified but how would we feel if the attacks had only been directed against military targets (as western attacks are) such as the Pentagon? I am sure that there would still be a number of american or western people willing to advocate a "nuke all the sand niggers" policy even if that had been the case - these westerners would be be no better or worst than the people gathering at this conference.

	09-09-2002 03:58									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin That's right! If he dislikes people celebrating 9/11, he's a fascist!

Hm, the thread took another turn, so just this... You know what political party this guy is a member of?

	09-09-2002 09:33									#43
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon I didn't say that. I was just saying that those civilians dying in the aftermath was an even greater tragedy.

Can you quantify or qualify this comment, or are you from the Mobius school of half-assed commentary where accidental deaths are to be prosecuted to a greater extent than murders, even though they have less of a negative psychological effect on the survivors?

IMO the net effect of the coalition efforts in Afghanistan over the last year has been to save lives. Certainly the peoples in the North have been delivered from the murderous clutches of the Taliban. In Kabul alone about 3 people a day were being murdered by the Taliban, which adds up to over 1000 a year. Add in those being killed in Herat and in the north proper and that is already equal to the number killed in the U.S. on 9/11. Then there are those who would have starved to death due to Taliban hostility / economic incompetence, which were estimated to be in the tens to hundreds of thousands when left wingers thought that they could blame the U.S. for their deaths anyway.

The coalition should be justly proud of their efforts in the past year. They have served both justice and humanity through the sacrifices and bravery of the men and women on the ground, whether they were military or humanitarian personnel. They have not only routed a group which was threatening a huge swath of the globe with attacks on innocent civilians, but they have given the people of Afghanistan an opportunity to improve their lives appreciably. This has not been a brutal response, and those who say it has been seem to be getting their news directly from the Taliban.

	09-09-2002 11:50									#44
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Ok, the attacks in Afghanistan freed the people of Afghanistan and they seem to be better off now than with the Taliban regime. It came years too late, the international community should have done something long before we came to September 11. I also have a favourable outlook on ousting Houssein, with an int'l mandate that is.

What I am wondering though is why the US and the int'l community didn't help prevent the genocide in Rwanda, the mass killings in Yugoslavia, East Timor, the injustices of Mugabee in Zibawbe (sp?), civil war in Ivory Cosat and innumerous other places where genocide, torture, terror, famine have wiped off thousands after thousands of innocent civilians caught in the middle of situation they couldn't control nor avoid!

As for the people even the few (mostly fanatics) that take joy in the killing of innocent civilians I say down with them. Put 'em in a hole so deep that they would never see sunlight again and let hem rot.

So long...

	09-09-2002 17:23									#45
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half the world tells us to leave them to their own business and the other half tells us to go halfway around the world to do something about it.



and both sides get pissed at us for one reason or another.

	09-09-2002 17:45									#46
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"Reality is not black or white. It is in shades of gray." -some American



(sorry to all the americans that don't get this)

	09-09-2002 17:49									#47
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Its pretty clear that there will be no "international mandate" to deal with Iraq. Our "allies" are showing their true colours (off-pink). The question is whether our bilateral assault with the Brits (our only true ally) will actually be worth it.

	09-09-2002 18:09									#48
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The only true ally is the one that always agrees with you?

Right...I see...

	09-09-2002 18:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX half the world tells us to leave them to their own business and the other half tells us to go halfway around the world to do something about it. and both sides get pissed at us for one reason or another.

Somewhat right! AFAI remember newly elected Bush and his cabinet did not really wanted to get involved in world politics and there was talk about a new isolism of the USA. But the intifada, jihad, this and taht and all wanted the US to come and help, mediate, etc.

But on the other side you do not take well to argument and constructive criticism. Because one argues with another that does not mean they cannot understand or agree with each other. Think of your parents they are not always in agreemnet with each other now are they?


So long...

	09-09-2002 19:00									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls The only true ally is the one that always agrees with you? Right...I see...

No, an ally (or friend) is one that stands with you on important matters even if they do disagree.

Maybe now you see......

	09-09-2002 20:20									#51
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"No, an ally (or friend) is one that stands with you on important matters even if they do disagree.

Maybe now you see......"

Nope...an ally (or friend) shouldn't do something simply for that reason. Especially something that they disagree with.

Consequently I still say you're essentially saying a good ally is one that always agrees with you.

	09-09-2002 20:43									#52
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Not at all.

An ally (or friend) might try to dissuade or even impede a course of action that they disagree with. So its not simply a matter of agreement/disagreement.

But when push comes to shove, you either stand with your ally or you're not an ally.

I may disagree with my drunken friends decision to openly belittle the Welsh Rugby team while in Cardiff. I may try to dissuade him from continuing. But as a friend I have to stand with him if some Welsh supporters decide to take offense

	09-09-2002 20:44									#53
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Ok, the attacks in Afghanistan freed the people of Afghanistan and they seem to be better off now than with the Taliban regime. It came years too late, the international community should have done something long before we came to September 11. I also have a favourable outlook on ousting Houssein, with an int'l mandate that is. What I am wondering though is why the US and the int'l community didn't help prevent the genocide in Rwanda, the mass killings in Yugoslavia, East Timor, the injustices of Mugabee in Zibawbe (sp?), civil war in Ivory Cosat and innumerous other places where genocide, torture, terror, famine have wiped off thousands after thousands of innocent civilians caught in the middle of situation they couldn't control nor avoid! As for the people even the few (mostly fanatics) that take joy in the killing of innocent civilians I say down with them. Put 'em in a hole so deep that they would never see sunlight again and let hem rot. So long...

That's the spirit, mate!

Unfortunately, (too) many of your European compatriots chicken out everytime when military force is involved. If it were not for the whining of those people, Bosnian tragedie could be resolved as early as 1992. It's very fortunate that we didn't listen to their whining this time and did our job in Afghanistan.

Morons like this one should finally realize that appeasement has never worked against vicious enemies, and never will.

	09-09-2002 20:44									#54
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Aahh..I see...Bush is drunk!

That explains a lot...

	09-09-2002 20:46									#55
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"...openly belittle the Welsh Rugby team while in Cardiff..."

I should also point out that most of the fans would be heartily agreeing with him.

Bloody WRFU...

	09-09-2002 22:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls "No, an ally (or friend) is one that stands with you on important matters even if they do disagree. Maybe now you see......" Nope...an ally (or friend) shouldn't do something simply for that reason. Especially something that they disagree with. Consequently I still say you're essentially saying a good ally is one that always agrees with you.

You just don't get it -- your country is an American colony.

	10-09-2002 10:49									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless That's the spirit, mate! Unfortunately, (too) many of your European compatriots chicken out everytime when military force is involved. If it were not for the whining of those people, Bosnian tragedie could be resolved as early as 1992. It's very fortunate that we didn't listen to their whining this time and did our job in Afghanistan. Morons like this one should finally realize that appeasement has never worked against vicious enemies, and never will.

Yep, there are idiots like him and many others in Europe, the States and everywhere else on this planet. The irony of the situation is that if the US backs down after all the int'l pressure and something bad will happen, like an attack on Israel or Kuwait by Iraq, an invasion of country A into country B then everybody screams and says that the US is indifferent, only thinks of itself, blah, blah, blah. Let's face it the world needed, need and will always need a country that is strong and that will be able to lead. I am just glad that it is the US and not Russia or Germany or some other country. The countries that have followed the "western" doctrine of democracy have been far better off than any country ever before and the US more or less tries to enforce the doctrine when it needs to be, sometimes a bit to strongly but still nothing like Russia and other hegemonies throughout history. I know I am going to get a lot of arguments on this one. But it is the fact that us Europeans have lost a lot of our Geopoltical power that make us often resent US policies. But then you just have to turn to history and see what the european countries did to the world when they were at their peak. (words that come to mind: slaughter, war, slavery, take advantage of certain people, famine, royalty, lack of democracy and miriads of others!)

So long...

	10-09-2002 17:47									#58
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Not at all. An ally (or friend) might try to dissuade or even impede a course of action that they disagree with. So its not simply a matter of agreement/disagreement. But when push comes to shove, you either stand with your ally or you're not an ally.

Well, if Saddam starts raising hell again - or if we have reason to believe that he is going to, then we will stand with you.

If we have reason to believe that your proposed course of action can actually solve the problem - or at least be a good step in the right direction, then we will stand with you.

What we will not do is to support yet another round of bombing against a country that's already been bombed more than any other nation in history when nothing good seems to have come out of it so far.

	10-09-2002 21:28									#59
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Well said, Guardian. I actually hope that Blair has some impact on Bush's eventual course of action. My main concern is that whatever we choose to do needs to actually have a positive effect. Nobody likes Saddam, and I doubt anyone would shead a tear if he is "removed" but I worried that we don't have much of a plan for what happens next.

-Arrian

	11-09-2002 12:41									#60
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I don't know... I sort of lost respect for Tony Blair after the last big strike on Iraq back in December of 1998.

After five days of bombing, he went on screen and said something along the lines of "We have no quarrel with the Iraqi people, but we all have a common enemy in Saddam."

As far as I'm concerned, he might as well have fired a machine gun into a crowd and then said he was only trying to get a wasp that was about to sting one of them...

-and then ask the survivors to help him get the wasp, because he missed it!