10-09-2002 01:17									#1
	quick question about theory of evolution Increase Your PM Length

i'm in my first game of civ since ive been here at uni... anyway, i'm 6 turns away from completeing the ToE, and it's 6 turns until i discover Replaceable Parts.

so, which will happen first? will the wonder be built, or will i get the tech?

it'd be a huge waste if i just got replaceable parts as a free tech.

if i don't get an answer soon i'll just speed up replacable parts by a turn or something...

	10-09-2002 01:24									#2
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You can do finish the research on the same turn, netting you 3 techs.

	10-09-2002 01:31									#3
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k, thanks

	10-09-2002 01:53									#4
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I'm no expert but past experience leaves me to believe it could go either way. Your going to learn replaceable parts when the city that will give you enough science takes its turn. If that city comes after the wonder building city your gonna get hosed. I would speed up the tech a turn or slow down the wonder a turn just to be safe. Well I would stop researching most likely and rake in the cash unless I already had piles of it.

Alantus

	10-09-2002 02:10									#5
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My advice, echoing Alantus, is to slow the ToE down so that it is built one turn AFTER you discover you rnext tech, in this case Replaceable Parts.

	10-09-2002 02:13									#6
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That's the way I used to do it to, but this issue got settled on another thread... research comes before building, so it's OK.

	10-09-2002 02:15									#7
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The nature of the order of tasks within each "turn" assures you that you will always get the tech discovery before the building project completes - put simply, the game checks for science discoveries before it checks city by city for build completions, disorder, flipping, WLTKD, etc. You can verify this in any game just by watching when you discover a tech -- you will always be prompted for the next research project before being directed to the first city task.

Nonetheless, it is wise to be careful. If you don't have a decent tech lead, another civ could discover Replaceable Parts before you, devaluing the tech, and making you get it earlier than ToE (no big deal - a turn or two of 0% research). More problematic would be that a city or two goes into disorder or falls out of WLTKD, or perhaps enough pollution starts popping up to deprive your overall civ of just enough gold to reach Replaceable Parts in X turns, and you instead reach it in X+1 turns.

I just had a spot of pollution screw up a pre-build a game ago, but thankfully it was a solar plant for a SS part and not ToE -- pollution caused a worker to move from a mined grassland to a mined mountain -- the few extra shields from the mountain made my solar plant complete on that very turn, even though the previous turn had indicated that the solar plant had "2" more turns to go. Not nearly as painful as finishing ToE while 1 turn from a new discovery would be.

Catt

	10-09-2002 03:42									#8
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Now I took a break from playing Civ3 from January till about 3 weeks ago, I was rather into playing Warcraft 3 from beta test until it got really boring. Since I patched Civ3 (very nice patch IMHO) and started reading Apolyton again and thinking about Civ3 way too much 1 thing keeps coming to my mind.

I am so amazed at the detail you people have gathered on the game! I guess that is what it takes to play at the 2 highest levels. I haven't been reading Apolyton THAT much but I keep reading wild stuff from the experts. It would be so cool to sit down and watch Catt or Zachriel or some of these others play civ for 8 hours. Clearly the way I go about doing things is a far cry from the way the studs do it.

Thanks for all the information.

Alantus

	10-09-2002 03:50									#9
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Im sure that when I got the same situation, I only got one free tech.

	10-09-2002 03:57									#10
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Alantus, join in on the AU games. We are consciously trying to lay out a lot of the details and mechanics of the game (especially early).

	10-09-2002 04:25									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs My advice, echoing Alantus, is to slow the ToE down so that it is built one turn AFTER you discover you rnext tech, in this case Replaceable Parts.

Why not just decrease science spending?

If your going to get 2 free techs in 6 turns might as well cut down spending and show me the money (damn cliches).

	10-09-2002 04:45									#12
	Re: I'm amazed (off topic) Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Alantus I am so amazed at the detail you people have gathered on the game! . . . . It would be so cool to sit down and watch Catt or Zachriel or some of these others play civ for 8 hours.

You'd probably be bored to tears watching Catt play - I've heard he's a good guy, but I've also heard he plays more for fun than for optimally exploiting every advantage at his disposal - to truly "play up" to all the detailed knowledge and tactics available in the forums would require a great deal of attention to detail and micromanagement - there are plenty of players who both enjoy that more than Catt, and are also better than him regardless of the level of micromanagament, and there are still plenty of others who know more about the ins-and-outs of the game functions. In fact, I suspect that he gathers most of his game knowledge from Apolyton and CivFanatics - I hear he spends at least as much time surfing the forums as he does playing the game, because he can surf (but not play) at work .

On the other hand, I'd join you in watching Zachriel play if he provided his immersive game commentary (a la his GOTM reports) in real time .

As Theseus said - you should join in on the AU games - they're a great deal of fun -- everyone plays the same game (on different levels according to the player's desire), no rules, no scoring, no contests, no timelines / deadlines - just fun and sharing the stories of the game. Now all of the AU players (experienced and inexperienced) have started sharing specific tips / insights that are neatly illustrated during the game and that others might have missed. You get to learn a little, maybe teach a little, and certainly have a little fun.

Catt

	10-09-2002 04:46									#13
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As was said you will get the research first, but if you are worried, why not up the research to get it in sooner. Just wait till it is 3 turns to go and set it for 2 turns. I try to make sure I have all the junk ones done before it comes such as Commie/Spy any left from prior era. I just trade or buy them. A few lux will get them. I hate to get a 4 turn tech with the ToE.

	10-09-2002 04:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I hate to get a 4 turn tech with the ToE.

They changed it a patch or two ago - now you always get to pick the two free techs that you want (right after the pop-up says "XXX has completed Theory of Evolution" your science advisor pops up to say "We've discovered the secrets of XXX (whatever you're currently researching) - what shall we research next?" - you pick the next free tech you want from the drop down, and your science advisor goes through the routine again.)

Catt

	10-09-2002 07:38									#15
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Quote Thrawn05:
Why not just decrease science spending?

If your going to get 2 free techs in 6 turns might as well cut down spending and show me the money (damn cliches). End Quote.

That's just how I've always done it since the original Civilization. Discover a new tech, next turn complete ToE and get two more. This ensures without a doubt that I do not get screwed out my science beakers by the ToE completing at nearly the same time as a tech, except for a very small few between the now-researched new tech and a completed ToE on the next turn. It's a minimal loss I'm always willing to take. As far as having the money...by the time I'm to ToE, money is not a great concern 'cause I try not to rush build anything unless ABSOLUTELY neccessary, like completing a defensive unit prior to the arrival of an enemy at the city gates.

	10-09-2002 08:27									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs That's just how I've always done it since the original Civilization. Discover a new tech, next turn complete ToE and get two more. This ensures without a doubt that I do not get screwed out my science beakers by the ToE completing at nearly the same time as a tech, except for a very small few between the now-researched new tech and a completed ToE on the next turn. It's a minimal loss I'm always willing to take. As far as having the money...by the time I'm to ToE, money is not a great concern 'cause I try not to rush build anything unless ABSOLUTELY neccessary, like completing a defensive unit prior to the arrival of an enemy at the city gates.

true, but you could put that extra money into good use, such as a few rush building jobs.


------------------

Is it me, or does the ToE always gives me the tech I'm researching for free, then the next one I pick?

	10-09-2002 09:35									#17
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I have seen both ways. Lately it lets me choose as I time my research to finish that turn.

	10-09-2002 21:22									#18
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I have seen both ways. Lately it lets me choose as I time my research to finish that turn.

I'm going to have to test this a little.

	10-09-2002 21:45									#19
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I have always timed my research correctly so that I don't waste any golds on them. For example, if I know that I will finish the ToE in the next 5 turns and my new research project would take 6 turns to complete, I just set all my research to zero and stocking up golds instead.

	10-09-2002 22:23									#20
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Just to be clear, when I say that you now always get to choose the two free techs, your first choice will always be whatever you're currently researching. Whether you complete a tech on the same turn as ToE, or you finished a tech a turn or two before, whatever you select as your next research target will be your first free tech (so you sometimes "choose" your first free tech several turns before you build ToE). You do not have the option to set reaserch on Refining but then expect to get Atomic Theory and Electronics from ToE. After getting your current research effort, you will then have the option to select the next research target, which will be given to you immediately as the second free tech.

Under previous versions (prior to 1.21 I think), the game arbitrarily selected the two free techs for you and, as vmxa1 said, you had to be pretty careful to have completed what many consider the "throwaway" techs of Communism and Espionage (usually easy to trade for) so as to not "waste" ToE's benefit on them.

Catt

	11-09-2002 00:34									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Just to be clear, when I say that you now always get to choose the two free techs, your first choice will always be whatever you're currently researching. Whether you complete a tech on the same turn as ToE, or you finished a tech a turn or two before, whatever you select as your next research target will be your first free tech (so you sometimes "choose" your first free tech several turns before you build ToE). You do not have the option to set reaserch on Refining but then expect to get Atomic Theory and Electronics from ToE. After getting your current research effort, you will then have the option to select the next research target, which will be given to you immediately as the second free tech. Under previous versions (prior to 1.21 I think), the game arbitrarily selected the two free techs for you and, as vmxa1 said, you had to be pretty careful to have completed what many consider the "throwaway" techs of Communism and Espionage (usually easy to trade for) so as to not "waste" ToE's benefit on them. Catt

Gotcha. I do remember when the ToE would give me a free tech at random with a picutre of Alphabet for it (strange), 1.29f seemed to have fixed this.

I'll take vmxa1's advice on that, I usualy buy communism and esp, since I set the tree to aim for tanks from the start.

	11-09-2002 04:25									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 I do remember when the ToE would give me a free tech at random with a picutre of Alphabet for it (strange), 1.29f seemed to have fixed this.

In my most recent game, ToE gave me my chosen tech (Atomic Theory) . . . with a picture of Democracy and the wording "We have learned the secrets of Democracy from the Americans. What would you like to research next?" I then selected Electronics; it was given to me immediately, with the picture of Democracy and the comment "We have learned the secrets of Democracy from the Americans. What would you like to research next?"

I think the inability to actually choose your free techs has gone away, but the challenges with the science advisor reporting remain.

	11-09-2002 06:32									#23
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ToE is great because it can allow you to shoot for Hoover a lot faster than any of the other Civs (or to catch up... ) If you carefully plan your pre-builds, you can finish ToE and Hoover within five or six turns, breaking most of the wonder cascade there may be. (I never managed to do this, but I know it is doable). Be sure though to research Atomic Theory when ToE is built and then select Electronics as your next free tech. Then, you can switch back to what you were researching before. It's a lot of micromanagement, but it is really worth it.

--Kon--

	11-09-2002 06:36									#24
	Re: quick question about theory of evolution Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX i'm in my first game of civ since ive been here at uni... anyway, i'm 6 turns away from completeing the ToE, and it's 6 turns until i discover Replaceable Parts.

If its on the same turn then Replacable Parts will happen first. Tech research is now finished at the beginning of a turn and the Wonders don't initiate till the cities are checked. It worked that way for me. I do the same line of research myself and I now try to time Replaceable parts to either finish the same turn or one turn before TOE does. If its the next turn for RP than I will slow down the wonder even if I have to starve people. Its really annoying to have TOE finish the RP when I have spent five or six turns of flasks researching it. I like getting three techs in one turn anyway.

	11-09-2002 07:08									#25
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ToE followed by Atomic Theory and Electronics, and thus Hoover, is becoming such a standard methodology that I wonder if we'll get a little tweak in PTW.

	11-09-2002 12:00									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus ToE followed by Atomic Theory and Electronics, and thus Hoover, is becoming such a standard methodology that I wonder if we'll get a little tweak in PTW.

Quite correct, Theseus. IMHO, ToE+Hoover is the only wonder thing that everybody will agree on. Discussion goes on about the importance of every single wonder, I believe, but these two. I have never heard of anyone dismissing them (unless in a very specific situation).

Firaxis did a great job in making most wonders just about equal in terms of their overall importance and usefulness (which is a great improvement over Civ2, where there were certain "killer wonders"). ToE and Hoover may be the exception proving the rule - even if not overly powerful, they are still no brainers - if you can, build them by all means. Maybe including a new viable wonder in the Northern part of the tech tree may bring more of wonder building strategy into this era of the game.

	11-09-2002 21:34									#27
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I agree, all will build them if they can. They are not killers as they come after the game has been decided. If the game was still in doubt, you would not be getting them so easily.