10-09-2002 01:54									#1
	Movement penalty for border crossing Increase Your PM Length

Am I correct in observing that when my troops enter an AI's territory on a road (with no river to factor in) they lose their remaining movement points?

Does the computer AI pay the same penalty? Specifically on Regent level, which is where I am still learning to play. Thanks...

[edited 3 minutes later]

Ok, I don't get the movement bonus for the road at all. That makes more sense but does the vomputer players suffer the same penalty?

	10-09-2002 02:00									#2
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You get no road benefits when in enemy territory. You only get road benefits when it is in your territory, you have right of passage or when you are crossing road in unclaimed land.

In the late game your calvary or modern armor can move 3 times in enemy territory on flat ground with no trees or jungle in the way, can only move once if it is in the mountains.

Alantus

	10-09-2002 02:01									#3
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Yes, if you havenīt got a ROP with the AI-Civ, you canīt access their Road and Railroad-Networks.
So if you have still 2/3 MP left when you approach the border you ca. just make one Step into enemy Territory.

And yes, the Computer has the same penalty.
I have often observed it. If an Computer Player has a ROP it will use Railroads and Roads to their advantage. If it hasnīt their Units are stuck to their Movement-Costs of the underlying terrain, even if they are not at war with your Civ and are "only" trespassing
Gives the owner of the Territory a distinct advantage if anyone tries to invade

	10-09-2002 02:03									#4
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Unless you have a RoP (Right of Passage Agreement) with the AI civ, its territory is considered unroaded to you -- each tile counts as at least one movement point, regardless of whether it is roaded, railroaded, etc.

With a RoP, you treat the AI's territory just as your own, and you enjoy the movement bonuses of its roads and railroads just as if they were yours.

The AIs operate under the same restrictions (but you'll probably notice that the AIs very often have RoP's with all other AIs - at least when not at war, obviously - and so very often get the road and railroad movement bonuses of other AI territory).

Catt

EDIT: Wow! an edited post and two replies in the time it took me to type my reply!

	10-09-2002 03:10									#5
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Something I haven't tried yet: if you have a RoP with another civ and they have rails can you: 1. move your forces throughout their empire placing units outside each city 2. attack the first city and thereby declare war 3. use your other units to attack other cities or will their movement points dissapear? Could be a VERY good strat if they keep their movement points.

	10-09-2002 03:22									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Something I haven't tried yet: if you have a RoP with another civ . . . .

You certainly can - it is usually referred to as "RoP Rape" and many players (dare I say most?) consider it an exploit. It is doable, it is within the game rules (even mentioned in the manual as something doable but which will earn the enmity of the world), and you do suffer a penalty for it (very bad reputation). But you can also take out a civ in one turn with a sufficiently sized force.

I consider it an exploit because the AI is incapable of doing this (or even seeing it coming), and it is doable only because it is a turn-based game. A human player couldn't even defend properly against it in MP unless it wasn't a turn-based game.

The AI will abuse its RoP with you to sneak attack, usually against a weakly defended interior city. But because of the way the AI controls units - it will use one unit completely before moving on to the next - it won't ever attack in the interior with more than one unit (unless it had a unit or two in transit at the time and therefore within your borders at the time the RoP is broken by the sneak attack). So it can abuse the RoP, but it can't position its entire offensive forces at city gates and the fire the shot heard round the world.

Catt

	10-09-2002 17:47									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Catt You certainly can - it is usually referred to as "RoP Rape" and many players (dare I say most?) consider it an exploit. It is doable, it is within the game rules (even mentioned in the manual as something doable but which will earn the enmity of the world), and you do suffer a penalty for it (very bad reputation). But you can also take out a civ in one turn with a sufficiently sized force. I consider it an exploit because the AI is incapable of doing this (or even seeing it coming), and it is doable only because it is a turn-based game. A human player couldn't even defend properly against it in MP unless it wasn't a turn-based game. The AI will abuse its RoP with you to sneak attack, usually against a weakly defended interior city. But because of the way the AI controls units - it will use one unit completely before moving on to the next - it won't ever attack in the interior with more than one unit (unless it had a unit or two in transit at the time and therefore within your borders at the time the RoP is broken by the sneak attack). So it can abuse the RoP, but it can't position its entire offensive forces at city gates and the fire the shot heard round the world. Catt

Yeah, it is pretty cheap....perhaps a turn based game could get around this problem by having one's turn automatically end as soon as you declare way (so you can't move your troops to attack until the next turn).

	10-09-2002 20:16									#8
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Aaargh, Double Post

Please Remove

	10-09-2002 20:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Blue Moose Yeah, it is pretty cheap....perhaps a turn based game could get around this problem by having one's turn automatically end as soon as you declare way (so you can't move your troops to attack until the next turn).

I donīt know if it was an earlier Version of Civilization or Call To Power,
but one solved the Problem by just moving all Enemy Units automatically outside the borders, if he declared war.
Might be a fine Idea for Civ 3 also, so you may be able to attack once (and break the ROP), but all other Units in Attack-Position are instantly moved outside the border, so they have to move into Attack Position again (but this time without the Benefit of Roads or Railroads )