10-09-2002 10:51									#1
	Favourite (and innovative) scenario concepts Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I was mulling over some of, what I considered to be the best and most unique uses of the civ2 engine to produce various desired effects last night, and I thought it might make a good thread.
I've left out CSPL deliberately here as I'm still playing with it.

A few of those scenarios/innovations that foremost came to mind ...
[Don't hesitate to correct this if I'm wrong about the first-use-of-concept or author. ]

Dagor Brogallach (Harlan?) - The first use (AFAIK) of range zero air units (mountains) to simulate impenetrable terrain. Being the surroundings of the hidden city of Gondolin.
This before the advent of ToT of course.

Red Front (Nemo - surprise surprise ) - for the use of city walls as anti-tank defenses, which were yet vulnerable to infantry with the ignore walls flag. An excellent depiction of reality.
(Also the first use of multiple rules/graphics files - Or was this in an Alex M. scen?).

Cruel Sea (Case) - Scenario with no ground combat or city-swapping. Straightforward perhaps, but this was the first use of such a concept to my knowledge, and to good effect.

Star Trek - Dominion War (Kobyashi) - use of terrain types (ie: Ocean) and change terrain effects to isolate the various civs and really recreate the feel of the DS9 epic.

One other (for which I can't remember the name/author) Arab-Israeli war-oriented scenario featuring arms buyers isolated to certain (arms market) regions of the map with the sole function of purchasing weapons...

What are some other, particularly innovative, favoured or unique scenario concepts?

	10-09-2002 13:44									#2
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There were many... Like suburb idea in Red Front.

	10-09-2002 19:09									#3
	Re: Favourite (and innovative) scenario concepts Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by ravagon Red Front (Nemo - surprise surprise ) - for the use of city walls as anti-tank defenses, which were yet vulnerable to infantry with the ignore walls flag. An excellent depiction of reality. (Also the first use of multiple rules/graphics files - Or was this in an Alex M. scen?).

AFAIK John Petroski first used the AT-defences in 'Up the deadly boot'

Spartacus was the first scen with multiple events/rules.

	11-09-2002 00:30									#4
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The Arab-Israeli war scenario with the Arms market was called "Exodus". Very good scenario.

2nd Front was very innovative in its use of the settler flag for armoured units to simulate fuel supplies, as well as having two seperate civs for the player to control.

	11-09-2002 04:49									#5
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Was Jesus Balsinde's Quest for El Dorado the first quest-style scenario?

For CreateUnit events, who first started using coordinates of squares occupied by human player units at the start of the game to create a nasty offensive by the AI?

	11-09-2002 04:58									#6
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Captain Nemo in Red Front *I think*

	11-09-2002 08:40									#7
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*frowns*

	11-09-2002 20:08									#8
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I'd have to say that the use of summer/winter terrains was a nice innovation in WW2 scenarios. Not sure who was first - I think I saw it first in the 2194 Days scenario, but I'm no expert here.

	12-09-2002 02:38									#9
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It wasn't in 2194.

You're probably thinking of Red Front.

	12-09-2002 07:23									#10
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quote: Red Front (Nemo - surprise surprise )

The only [non] surprise is that you're overlooking the actual *firsts* to give credit to a more popular scenario.

These are some early scenarios using the summer/winter changes:

"The Third Reich" - Jan '99
"Ansteig" - Apr '99
"Global WW2" - Apr '99
"Red Front" Nov '99

It's a good job you're not American.

DarthVeda's frowning because you're ignoring his "Gang wars" scenario. First scenario in a an urban setting. Also first for html documentation.

You can credit Nemo for implementing the paradropping ships idea in Second Front.

Dagor Brogallach was created by Brian Reynolds.

Harlan I think deserves credit for two innovations:
1. Having two orc units in the LOTR scenario that were visually identical: one static, one not.
2. In his WW2 Europe scenario, depicting the Maginot line as Fortresses, but also homing them to French cities, so they disappeared when the cities fell.

I would also publicly credit Paul Heron for making the first complete mods for civ2: his Star Trek universe and Babylon 5 scenarios. These set high standards which were not matched until Koba came along.

	12-09-2002 08:05									#11
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Thanks for the historical perspective, AL.

Harlan also used high hp/fp with low defense stats for heroes. When stacked with conventional units, these stats kept them from being first targets of an AI attack. They're still pretty tough to kill, though.

Don't know if he was the first to use this.

How about his idea to defend the Shire with Rangers, slow air units? They would act as a magnet for nonfighter units. Tension was introduced when the Rangers had to land - they were vulnerable on bases.

	12-09-2002 09:02									#12
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Not that its that important, the changing of seasons was first implimented in the Thrid Reich scenario... BUT it was John Petroski who spawned the idea first. I just ripped it from him and finished my scenario first.

	13-09-2002 11:30									#13
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Was Mr Temba the first to use

voice as unit sounds

negative bonuses for terrain

helicopter settlers who could change sea to land

represent polution using the concept of slaves


I think Harlan's LOTR contribution was two slots for Nazguls - you get the second one when the first one dies so each Ring Wraith is only reborn once. He was probably the first one to use the concept of a land carrier (Frodo).

Last edited by kobayashi on 13-09-2002 at 11:40

	13-09-2002 23:41									#14
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What about the concept of mercenary type units?

Such that there are units about the board, with a price on their shield. @IF Kill said unit, @THEN create mercenary unit, and subtract X from treasury.

Henrik uses it in one of his, and I assume it came from someone else? ( No offense H)

-FMK.

	14-09-2002 10:40									#15
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Yup, while I didn't know it at the time, it has been used by others, in the Yom Kipur war scenario mentioned above, something very similar is used to buy arms.

In my scenario the killed unit would come back also though

	15-09-2002 00:52									#16
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Wasn't 2194Days also the first one to use batch files for events switching?

quote: Was Jesus Balsinde's Quest for El Dorado the first quest-style scenario?

The first scenarios I know of that used a quest system were Alex Mor's "Quebec" and "Pelopponesian War" scenarios, but I don't know which one came first. But "Spartacus" was definately the one to be entirely quest-oriented, and Mike Jeszenka's "Shanarra" scenario was the second if I'm not mistaken... a forgotten jewel anyhow.

	15-09-2002 02:17									#17
	Shanarra Remove this text

Where can it be found?

	15-09-2002 03:00									#18
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Will Stalingrad be the first scenario set in a city?

	15-09-2002 11:41									#19
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I wonder if anyone published these infos here.

I got a "neutronic" bomb by setting nuclear weapon attack value to 80. Same effect, diminished pollution casualities. Very nice, have to try it.

	15-09-2002 14:03									#20
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You mean that the nuke still wipes all the units from it's target square and each square around it, but doesn't create pollution?

	15-09-2002 16:05									#21
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This truely works! interesting feature.

	15-09-2002 17:04									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson You mean that the nuke still wipes all the units from it's target square and each square around it, but doesn't create pollution?

not exactly. possibilities are reduced to 1/10 of original civ nuke weapons . I experienced it on a ol'beta Gundam scenario, allowing only a limited number of neutronic bombs due to an hypotetical South Pole Thetry trigger event .

	15-09-2002 21:53									#23
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Hmm, someone better tell all the designers who use nukes to represent plagues about this.

	15-09-2002 21:59									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel Wasn't 2194Days also the first one to use batch files for events switching? quote: Was Jesus Balsinde's Quest for El Dorado the first quest-style scenario? The first scenarios I know of that used a quest system were Alex Mor's "Quebec" and "Pelopponesian War" scenarios, but I don't know which one came first. But "Spartacus" was definately the one to be entirely quest-oriented, and Mike Jeszenka's "Shanarra" scenario was the second if I'm not mistaken... a forgotten jewel anyhow.

cough cough....

	15-09-2002 22:27									#25
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Will Stalingrad be the first scenario set in a city?

Nope, there are a few gangster type scens that I have seen which take place in a city.

-FMK.

	15-09-2002 22:45									#26
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Darn, I was thinking of my Roman Riots.

	15-09-2002 22:46									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh Nope, there are a few gangster type scens that I have seen which take place in a city. -FMK.

Don't forget the scenario "Roman Riots". I can not remember who it is by right now but it was good none the less.

	16-09-2002 03:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by kobayashi negative bonuses for terrain

What is the effect of negative bonuses for terrain?

	16-09-2002 03:18									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Jimmywax Don't forget the scenario "Roman Riots". I can not remember who it is by right now but it was good none the less.

Look up Jimmy.

	16-09-2002 07:03									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh Look up Jimmy.

It would have been rather amusing if it wasn't an obvious case of near-simultaneous posting though...

So does anybody know the limits of this "neutron bomb" effect? ie: At what attack rating (below 80?) does it come into play? and does it scale up towards a full "nuke" at attack 99 or does it suddenly jump after 98?

Time to have a play ...