10-09-2002 20:02									#31
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd You see that as a good thing. I see that as a method of forcing healthy people to pay for sick people, on the justification that someday they might get sick too. Which sounds alright, until you look at the situation and see that Person A ends up paying out for Person B's cancer, while Person B ends up paying out for Person A's flu. Come on. A much better system is one in which everyone pays for their own health care. If they want private insurance, fine that's their choice, but if not, it's only right for someone to pay for their own health care.

And that is because of some medical corporations leader who think same as you that 33% of Africa's population as AIDS (not HIV positive, declared AIDS) and cant cure it, since the medicine is expensive.

quote: Or take education. It seems only reasonable that parents should be responsible for their children's education, and if they can't afford it they shouldn't have had so many children. It should not be the responsibility of some 48 year old unmarried childless office worker.

That is even worst, and this is actually totally inhumane. You mean if you dont have the money to feed your children, dont have childrens. Well, so, if you dont have money to feed yourself, kill yourself directly.
Impressive demonstration of the capitalism.

quote: Subsidized bus fares? Come on! Either drive your own car, or pay your own bus fare. But don't expect someone who drives everywhere to pay for you, just because you can't afford or don't want a car. [QUOTE] See Rasbey's answer. [QUOTE]And why is it you think there aren't roads in the US? There are certainly far more highways in the US than in Europe.

Because you are too dumb to build RAILROADS ? (which is cheaper in upkeeping, more ecological, and dont need oil but only electricity) Or because you were almost a hundred years late on the Industrial Revolution ?
One last point : there is more railroads in France and England than in the whole USA. Add Germany and Itlay to that, plus all the rest of Europe, and you'll have an idea of what is an infrastructure.

	10-09-2002 20:04									#32
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quote: Have you ever heard of a shared responsibility to take care of the poor? Well, I guess you haven't.

Guess not.

quote: Thanks to the Fennoscandinavian model for subsidised health care (of course just in a certain extense), all HIV infected persons can get their treatment, while many, many HIV patients in USA can't get their medication.

Looks like they had sex with the wrong person, eh? In any case, it's their own responsibility regardless.

quote: Your example is abit surreal as it's all paid by The Social Insurance Institution of Finland (every Finnish citizen has a health insurance by SIIF), the municipalities and the Ministry of Social Affairs and Health.

This wouldn't be as bad if there was a way to opt out of this system.

quote: This reminds of USA and road traffic pollution caused by Yanks that have to drive their own cars that consume more than enough gas, instead of using more environmental friendly cars and using public transportation. But of course you can't have any working public transportation if there's no hope for it when the gas prices are so cheap and there's no financial help available. Yet another USA reality.

Well, that, and buses clog the roads and piss me off when I'm trying to drive. Freakin' bus stops, making me late!

quote: There has this far never been any Democratic Trotskyist governments, so how can you know that?

What I said was a troll, I thought I made that clear. I was being a smartass.

Personally, I think communism and any related systems are ****, but that's beside the point.

quote: Your comment just confirms that churches, charity, family =/~ US social insurance system.

Why exactly do you think this would be a bad thing?

	10-09-2002 20:07									#33
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Would you be able to opt out of the benefits you would receive from living in a well educated healthy society.

	10-09-2002 20:08									#34
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quote: And that is because of some medical corporations leader who think same as you that 33% of Africa's population as AIDS (not HIV positive, declared AIDS) and cant cure it, since the medicine is expensive.

How is Africans having too much unprotected sex my problem? Because ultimately, that's the root cause of AIDs, wouldn't you say? Someone not being responsible, right?

quote: You mean if you dont have the money to feed your children, dont have childrens.

This seems like the logical and compassionate solution to me.

quote: Well, so, if you dont have money to feed yourself, kill yourself directly.

How is not having children the same as suicide?

quote: Because you are too dumb to build RAILROADS ? (which is cheaper in upkeeping, more ecological, and dont need oil but only electricity) Or because you were almost a hundred years late on the Industrial Revolution ? One last point : there is more railroads in France and England than in the whole USA. Add Germany and Itlay to that, plus all the rest of Europe, and you'll have an idea of what is an infrastructure.

Railroads? But those get robbed by the bad guys in Westerns! I'm not riding one of them!

	10-09-2002 20:09									#35
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It's a bit useless arguing about system of government with a libertarian, since the whole enchilada is not only consistent, but pretty much the only option to take if you subscribe to their particular "maximum liberty" worldview. It's not very utilitarian, of course, so I'm staying far away from it all, but at least it proves that too much consistency isn't necessarily a good thing.

	10-09-2002 20:10									#36
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quote: Would you be able to opt out of the benefits you would receive from living in a well educated healthy society.

I know what you're saying, but just because someone else chooses to pay into a system that gets them education and health insurance doesn't mean you should be punished for seeking a private route. Even if those people end up "better off" than you do, I still see no reason why you should have to pay for the "privilege" of being around healthy educated people.

	10-09-2002 20:11									#37
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quote: but at least it proves that too much consistency isn't necessarily a good thing.

Isn't that a bit like saying "a bit too much logic isn't necessarily a good thing", or "a little hypocricy isn't bad"?

	10-09-2002 20:12									#38
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I know what you're saying, but just because someone else chooses to pay into a system that gets them education and health insurance doesn't mean you should be punished for seeking a private route. Even if those people end up "better off" than you do, I still see no reason why you should have to pay for the "privilege" of being around healthy educated people.

Amybe on your death your children or family could get a rebate to represent all teh services you did not use

	10-09-2002 20:13									#39
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quote: Amybe on your death your children or family could get a rebate to represent all teh services you did not use

Eh? If you opt out of a social insurance system, why should your family receive rebates for services you never used or paid for?

	10-09-2002 20:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd How is Africans having too much unprotected sex my problem? Because ultimately, that's the root cause of AIDs, wouldn't you say? Someone not being responsible, right?

How much cost a condom in USA ? I dunno.
How much cost a condom in France ? Its free, due to healthcare.
How much cost a condom in Africa ? In most countries, one month of wage. So, according to your logical and compassionate solution, they shouldnt have sex neither ?

quote: This seems like the logical and compassionate solution to me. How is not having children the same as suicide?

Your missing the logical articulation : i said : You mean if you dont have the money to feed your children, dont have childrens. Well, so, if you dont have money to feed yourself, kill yourself directly.
I could have said : let you starve directly, which is also a sort of suicide.
A not suicidal person like me would prefer to rob a train.

	10-09-2002 20:16									#41
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Eh? If you opt out of a social insurance system, why should your family receive rebates for services you never used or paid for?

It was a joke, i meant if you were compelled tp pay in to the system during your lifetime you could get the rebate at the end

	10-09-2002 20:18									#42
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quote: How much cost a condom in Africa ? In most countries, one month of wage. So, according to your logical and compassionate solution, they shouldnt have sex neither ?

Well, would YOU have sex if you knew there was a significant chance of getting AIDs? No? Well I guess some of us are just smarter than others...
Of COURSE they should not have unprotected sex with multiple partners in a place where AIDs is rampant - they shouldn't do that even in the US or Europe! It's their own fault they have AIDs, if they went around doing that.

quote: Well, so, if you dont have money to feed yourself, kill yourself directly. I could have said : let you starve directly, which is also a sort of suicide.

No, take advantage of the numerous options open to you, such as charity, churches, and family. I guarantee you won't starve - granted, it won't be prime rib and premium cut steak, but you won't starve.

	10-09-2002 20:18									#43
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Pande,

	10-09-2002 20:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, would YOU have sex if you knew there was a significant chance of getting AIDs? No? Well I guess some of us are just smarter than others... Of COURSE they should not have unprotected sex with multiple partners in a place where AIDs is rampant - they shouldn't do that even in the US or Europe! It's their own fault they have AIDs, if they went around doing that.

well the government might have to spend money to tell people about the dangers of AIDS, therby spending money on health care

	10-09-2002 20:23									#45
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quote: well the government might have to spend money to tell people about the dangers of AIDS, therby spending money on health care

Reasonable people don't need sex ed classes to make reasonable connections regarding how people get sick, wouldn't you say? Are you telling me that people in Africa don't know what AIDs is? Come on, give people a little credit.

But let's face it, even if someone has no idea what AIDs is, and they go around having sex, it's STILL their fault and responsibility. It certainly isn't mine.

	10-09-2002 20:23									#46
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quote: Isn't that a bit like saying "a bit too much logic isn't necessarily a good thing", or "a little hypocricy isn't bad"?

Yes, and?

Too much of anything is not a good thing, and hypocrisy's not nearly as bad as it's often painted as.

	10-09-2002 20:24									#47
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quote: hypocrisy's not nearly as bad as it's often painted as.

I don't think I agree with that statement

	10-09-2002 20:24									#48
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, would YOU have sex if you knew there was a significant chance of getting AIDs? No? Well I guess some of us are just smarter than others... Of COURSE they should not have unprotected sex with multiple partners in a place where AIDs is rampant - they shouldn't do that even in the US or Europe! It's their own fault they have AIDs, if they went around doing that.

You're well informed about AIDS, thanx to your efficient medias in your country. Im pretty sure though it cannot be compared to Africa's mass medias.

quote: No, take advantage of the numerous options open to you, such as charity, churches, and family. I guarantee you won't starve - granted, it won't be prime rib and premium cut steak, but you won't starve.

So explain me why 13,104,000 died of starving since last 9/11 ? (based on the ratio of 36,000 a day, which is the average number of people dying from starving everyday).

	10-09-2002 20:24									#49
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Of COURSE they should not have unprotected sex with multiple partners in a place where AIDs is rampant - they shouldn't do that even in the US or Europe! It's their own fault they have AIDs, if they went around doing that.

Well, your ignorance of the global HIV and AIDS problem can very easily be your doom too. If we don't jointly take of the problem by providing HIV and AIDS medication, awareness, education and condoms, the problem will grow into a such scale that you can catch it almost anywhere. Of course you're now going to say that you actually live in selibacy in a cave in the Rocky Mountains, so you can't possible catch the virus infection.

quote: No, take advantage of the numerous options open to you, such as charity, churches, and family. I guarantee you won't starve - granted, it won't be prime rib and premium cut steak, but you won't starve.

This doesn't require my comments as it looks like you have never seen even a poor beggar.

	10-09-2002 20:28									#50
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quote: Well, your ignorance of the global HIV and AIDS problem can very easily be your doom too. If we don't jointly take of the problem by providing HIV and AIDS medication, awareness, education and condoms, the problem will grow into a such scale that you can catch it almost anywhere. Of course you're now going to say that you actually live in selibacy in a cave in the Rocky Mountains, so you can't possible catch the virus infection.

You can catch most STDs almost anywhere. There are reasonable precautions to take, of course, to make pretty damn sure both you and your partner are safe. Precautions, of course, that you pay for yourself.

But as to living in celibacy, well, so far...

quote: This doesn't require my comments as it looks like you have never seen even a poor beggar.

I see them all the time here in Austin hanging out by liquor stores and by campus. Only thing they lack is their daily ration of cheap Scotch and cigarettes, although come to think of it I do see most of them smoking, so obviously they're spending money on something besides food.

	10-09-2002 20:29									#51
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Reasonable people don't need sex ed classes to make reasonable connections regarding how people get sick, wouldn't you say? Are you telling me that people in Africa don't know what AIDs is? Come on, give people a little credit.

No, its something very vague to them. Especially since the Pope annouced people shoulnt use condoms. The concept of sexually transmissible disease is unknow in many parts of Africa. And for those who know the concept, many thinks washing his/ger sexual organs is sufficient.

quote: But let's face it, even if someone has no idea what AIDs is, and they go around having sex, it's STILL their fault and responsibility. It certainly isn't mine.

Why ? Dont you have the power to help about it ? Its like saying : that kid was drawning in the swimming pool, and I stood there drinking my Coca-Cola and reading the Financial Times. It s not my kid, its his fault and responsability.
This is a crime in France which is called "non-assistance to endangered persons".

	10-09-2002 20:30									#52
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Reasonable people don't need sex ed classes to make reasonable connections regarding how people get sick, wouldn't you say? Are you telling me that people in Africa don't know what AIDs is? Come on, give people a little credit.

Reasonable people become reasonable due to an education, which in your littel world would be denied to anybody who didn't have wealthy parents.

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd But let's face it, even if someone has no idea what AIDs is, and they go around having sex, it's STILL their fault and responsibility. It certainly isn't mine.

Oh yeah, how can it be someones fault if they never new about the dangers.

	10-09-2002 20:34									#53
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quote: No, its something very vague to them. Especially since the Pope annouced people shoulnt use condoms.

I'm pretty sure the Pope also opposes pre-marital sex with tons of people, wouldn't you say?

quote: The concept of sexually transmissible disease is unknow in many parts of Africa. And for those who know the concept, many thinks washing his/ger sexual organs is sufficient.

I suppose they'll be in for a rude shock when this doesn't work, but these people have basic reasoning capacities, just like we do, and should be able to figure out that if people get STDs after washing their sexual organs, then washing isn't sufficient.

quote: Oh yeah, how can it be someones fault if they never new about the dangers.

They are ultimately responsible for the choices they make in life, even if they are initially ignorant of the consequences.

How can it be my responsibility if I was never involved in the sexual act in the first place?

	10-09-2002 20:35									#54
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And now some more fuel into DF's libertarianism generator...

For instance Cuba is a very good example of how state funded health care services can guarantee that there is at least somekind of health care available for the people. Without socialism the Cubans couldn't get any medical services at all. Not to mention the issue of education. All the statistics about the basic services show that the Cubans get enough health care and the percentage of those who can read is high; not to mention that their educational system isn't that bad after all. The system has been indeed hampered by the fall of USSR (their main trading partner) and the sanctions imposed by USA. So this just shows that other means than ultralibertarianism provide better results when it comes to health care.

	10-09-2002 20:36									#55
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quote: Why ? Dont you have the power to help about it ? Its like saying : that kid was drawning in the swimming pool, and I stood there drinking my Coca-Cola and reading the Financial Times. It s not my kid, its his fault and responsability. This is a crime in France which is called "non-assistance to endangered persons".

Don't you think those are entirely different things? A small child drowning in a swimming pool and a full grown adult who chooses to have sex with someone who probably has AIDs?

I don't think the law can compel me to help either of them. Morally, I should certainly help the child, but when it comes down to it his parents shouldn't have left him unattended. And yes, morally, I should be willing to help anyone in need. But being willing to voluntarily help is called charity, and charity is something I have no problem with. Being forced to help is something else entirely, and I have a major problem with it.

	10-09-2002 20:37									#56
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd How can it be my responsibility if I was never involved in the sexual act in the first place?

It is called non-assistance to endangered persons. You know, its not *such* a big effort to help someone.

	10-09-2002 20:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd One in which the bottom line is that the wishes of the even a 99% supermajority cannot ever override the property rights or freedom of the 1% minority.

I believe they had a system like that in France, back in 1789 or so. Look what happened to the property owners then.

	10-09-2002 20:39									#58
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quote: For instance Cuba is a very good example of how state funded health care services can guarantee that there is at least somekind of health care available for the people. Without socialism the Cubans couldn't get any medical services at all. Not to mention the issue of education. All the statistics about the basic services show that the Cubans get enough health care and the percentage of those who can read is high; not to mention that their educational system isn't that bad after all. The system has been indeed hampered by the fall of USSR (their main trading partner) and the sanctions imposed by USA. So this just shows that other means that ultralibertarianism provides better results when it comes to health care.

Who's talking about results? I don't care about results. I care about right and wrong. I'd rather lose a fight, but be in the right, than to be on the wrong side.

Yes, if a government pours billions of dollars into national health care, and is able to maintain efficiency, I have no doubt that the country in question will be relatively healthy. But I'm not concerned with that, I'm concerned with having the right to spend my money as I see fit.

	10-09-2002 20:41									#59
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quote: You know, its not *such* a big effort to help someone.

It is when someone says I have to.

quote: I believe they had a system like that in France, back in 1789 or so. Look what happened to the property owners then.

They were murdered?
Right, so someone acted in the wrong, wouldn't you say?

But then again, 1789 France was not exactly an example of a free society, was it? And after the Revolution, it certainly wasn't any freer, wouldn't you agree? So I'm not sure I see your point.

	10-09-2002 20:43									#60
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And yes, morally, I should be willing to help anyone in need. But being willing to voluntarily help is called charity, and charity is something I have no problem with. Being forced to help is something else entirely, and I have a major problem with it.

Are you trying to say that you're an ultralibertarian that actually gives funds to charity, while he also denies (all) forms of common responsebility that is promoted by the charity organisation he supports.

Touché!