10-09-2002 20:44									#61
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I (including pass thru entities) run around 60% to 70% taxes on my net income (before taxes) which is mostly rents. The largest portion of my taxes are property taxes, mostly for local schools.

	10-09-2002 20:45									#62
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I have given money to churches before, yes. I feel a moral responsibility to help others less fortunate than myself, but I deny that any legal or social responsibility exists.

	10-09-2002 20:46									#63
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I dont pay taxes, Im too poor.

	10-09-2002 20:47									#64
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Not all property owners were murdered. In fact, not even most of them. But many were dispossessed.

The point is that any society wherein the wealthy are given free reign to accumulate and horde their wealth while the needs of the poor are ignored is destined for violent upheaval. Whether you choose to believe it or not, government assistance is vital to keep many people out of complete destitution in this country. History has shown us that when the disparity between rich and poor is extreme, the rich end up paying a far dearer price than a few taxes.

Consider welfare an investment to help preserve public order, keep crime to low levels and, yes, give a little bit of help to people desperately in need.

	10-09-2002 20:47									#65
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I have given money to churches before, yes. I feel a moral responsibility to help others less fortunate than myself, but I deny that any legal or social responsibility exists.

I was rather talking of humane responsibility.
You seem to be the kind of person who is proud to give his old shoes at a charity, these shoes made by five years old vietnamese kids. Am I wrong ?

	10-09-2002 20:48									#66
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I have given money to churches before, yes. I feel a moral responsibility to help others less fortunate than myself, but I deny that any legal or social responsibility exists.

By giving financial support to the church's fund raising for the poor, you actually support an organisation that relies on the fundamental of common social responsibility to take care of the poor. This is not my statement or opinion. Read the Bible.

Touché again!

	10-09-2002 20:50									#67
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quote: Not all property owners were murdered. In fact, not even most of them. But many were dispossessed.

My point holds.

quote: The point is that any society wherein the wealthy are given free reign to accumulate and horde their wealth while the needs of the poor are ignored is destined for violent upheaval.

True, many people are inherently immoral and greedy, and see nothing wrong with stealing to promote their ends (Hint: I'm not talking about the people "hording" wealth).

quote: Whether you choose to believe it or not, government assistance is vital to keep many people out of complete destitution in this country.

I'm not arguing that no one would be in poverty, I'm saying that I seriously doubt anyone would starve.

quote: History has shown us that when the disparity between rich and poor is extreme, the rich end up paying a far dearer price than a few taxes.

Right, again because the poor seem to end up being a bunch of greedy, immoral, murdering thieves.

quote: Consider welfare an investment to help preserve public order, keep crime to low levels and, yes, give a little bit of help to people desperately in need.

Hmm, that sounds a bit like extortion.

Then you won't object if I show up with a baseball bat, take your computer and TV and wallet, and say you shouldn't ***** about it because that way public order is retained and, after all, I DO need that stuff.

	10-09-2002 20:51									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola I (including pass thru entities) run around 60% to 70% taxes on my net income (before taxes) which is mostly rents. The largest portion of my taxes are property taxes, mostly for local schools.

What kind of property tax rates do you have to pay ?

	10-09-2002 20:52									#69
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quote: You seem to be the kind of person who is proud to give his old shoes at a charity, these shoes made by five years old vietnamese kids. Am I wrong ?

What's wrong with doing that? At least they didn't go in the dumpster, which would be much more convenient for me, right? Oh, and come to think of it, at least those Vietnamese kids are employed rather than on the streets, right?

quote: By giving financial support to the church's fund raising for the poor, you actually support an organisation that relies on the fundamental of common social responsibility to take care of the poor. This is not my statement or opinion. Read the Bible.

Good thing the US is not a society ruled by Biblical law, then

	10-09-2002 21:06									#70
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Good thing the US is not a society ruled by Biblical law, then.

The point was that you have been supporting an istance that represents a joint social responsebility (= the thing you hate, if you don't understand it ) of the poor. By giving financial support to their work, you have accepted their work and give them your support.

So, yes, touché for the third time.

	10-09-2002 21:15									#71
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quote: The point was that you have been supporting an istance that represents a joint social responsebility (= the thing you hate, if you don't understand it ) of the poor. By giving financial support to their work, you have accepted their work and give them your support.

I don't see the inconsistency, though. I'm choosing voluntarily to give to a church/charity organization. I may not agree with every position of said organization, but then again that doesn't really matter in this case. Yes, they probably see a social responsibility. I see a moral responsibility, not a social one. I'm fulfilling what I view as my moral responsibility by donated money and/or food. If the organization I'm giving to doesn't use that money or food to help poor people, and instead use it to, say, lobby Congress, the responsibility lies on them for mismanaging money, not on me for giving it.

	10-09-2002 21:21									#72
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BTW, the church also has a fundamental morale responsebility to help the poor (read the Bible ), so what I stated applies anyway.

	10-09-2002 21:25									#73
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quote: the church also has a fundamental morale responsebility to help the poor

Sure. Where have I denied this?

We're talking about two different things, here. I'm opposing the use of force by the government to coerce me into paying for others. I'm against national health care systems that involve me paying for your cancer treatments. I'm against paying for AIDs treatments for people who have AIDs due to their own ignorance, incompetence, and general stupidity.

But I have no problem giving someone five bucks to go buy lunch, or whatever.

	10-09-2002 21:38									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak I dont pay taxes, Im too poor.

It's fun being generous with other people's money, isn't it?

	10-09-2002 22:12									#75
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Dino,

it's fun ripping of the money from the poor, isn't it?

	10-09-2002 22:20									#76
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How does not giving money to the poor equate to robbing them? That's one of the most ****ed up definitions I've ever heard.

	10-09-2002 23:29									#77
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FYI, the richest 50% of Americans pay about 95% of all federal income taxes. This translates into them paying almost all of the state income taxes as well. So these rich people are screwing other rich people.

There are other taxes, of course. Property, sales, payroll.

	10-09-2002 23:40									#78
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Most Euros want state funded health care most Americans don't, its called democracy i don't see what the problem is

Actually, in poll after poll, a significant majority of Americans want state funded health care. It's just that our "democracy" is so beholden to corporate interests that it isn't a political option while we're still a bribocracy.

	10-09-2002 23:42									#79
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quote: Actually, in poll after poll, a significant majority of Americans want state funded health care.

Of course they do - they are incapable of thinking, and more to the point, don't really care about property rights. That's why I oppose democracy.

	10-09-2002 23:52									#80
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I support the efforts of Comrade Floyd. If his system ever comes to pass, communism will follow shortly afterward.

Use all the moral arguments you like, DF, but nine times out of ten, survival will trump morality. A society as injurous to the majority as the one you propsed is moral only to those whom it beniftis. It is immoral to the vast majority. Such a society could only be maintained through massive violence. It would then become necessary for you to create a state to protect your wealth from the majority, and then you're back where you started, involuntarily giving up some of your wealth in order to keep the rest.

	11-09-2002 00:00									#81
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quote: Such a society could only be maintained through massive violence

Again, even if this were true, it would only be because those committing the violent acts were selfish, greedy, and generally immoral. Let's assign the blame where it belongs.

	11-09-2002 00:02									#82
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Yes, moral people should consign themselves to dying so that the priveldged few can maintain their stolen property.

	11-09-2002 00:03									#83
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I didn't think that you were one of those wierd "Property is theft" people, che.

	11-09-2002 00:36									#84
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Only when I'm being silly, DD. However, we cannot deny that the vast majority of property is based on theft; either the theft of Mexican gold or African people or Amerind land or peasant communes and so forth throughout the depths of history. At some point along the way, almost all the property in the world is stolen, which means if one holds to absolute morals, such as libertarians claim to do, that no one has a valid claim to any property. There is no blank slate of property relations.

I accept that and realize that modern property claims are vaild only within certain perameters. When those perimeters cease to be valid, then claims of proprty based on those perimeters will also cease to be valid. I don't challenge the right of capitalists to own property within the capitalist system. The have the right. But when we move into a socialist society, that right will become a privelege, and will only be allowed so long as it does not hinder the development of society. When it does, their property will become common property, as it was in the begining.

	11-09-2002 01:06									#85
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quote: When they are ready to withdraw from the pool, the partnership gives them not their original shares or cash but instead shares of a variety of stocks held by the pool. As a result, someone with too much money in one stock can quickly diversify into a more balanced portfolio. But unlike other investors, who have to pay taxes on profits when they sell a stock, no taxes are owed on the profits of the shares contributed to the pool

Maybe I'm being dumb, but what is wrong with this? Just the "disparity" between rich and poor?

Surely the simplest thing to do is give "rollover relief" to everyone buying/selling shares. If all the proceeds from share sales are less than the cost of of new shares you defer the tax.

Such practices are fairly common on other assets.

	11-09-2002 01:20									#86
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As it was in the beginning, Che? What beginning, the State of Nature?

But anyway...

Like I was saying to a friend of mine a couple of weekends ago: I don't mind paying taxes - it's just that I have this horrible feeling that my money is being pissed away by the government. I'm not specifically talking about social programs, which I'm sure piss off DF to no end, although I'm sure some of those are badly mismanaged. I'm also talking about the military, assorted pork barrel projects, and the payroll of our beauracracy.

Here's what I want: a society which has as its primary goal equal opportunity (as close as we can get, anyway) in life for all citizens. I stress the world OPPORTUNITY. Not outcome. This means that everyone has the right to a good education & health care while they are minors. Once you're an adult, I say you need to make it on your own. Some basic saftey nets such as we have now would stay.

The one thing I continue to wrestle with, morally, is the question of the estate tax. On the one hand, my desire for "equal opportunity" suggests an estate tax of 100%. On the other, I am rather cynical about what the government would do with that 100%, and I respect the wishes of parents everywhere to provide a better life for their children. So there must be middle ground. I suppose an upper limit of how much you can leave per child would suffice.

One of the reasons we cannot afford more services is that we pay an ASTOUNDING amount of money every year to keep up the best military on the planet. One can argue that the military exists in part to protect our trade interests around the globe. If that argument is valid, then it may justify spending levels that provide us with global power projection (basically, the carrier task forces). But something tells me some of this can be trimmed without the US suddenly becoming a paper tiger.

	11-09-2002 01:31									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The one thing I continue to wrestle with, morally, is the question of the estate tax. On the one hand, my desire for "equal opportunity" suggests an estate tax of 100%. On the other, I am rather cynical about what the government would do with that 100%, and I respect the wishes of parents everywhere to provide a better life for their children. So there must be middle ground. I suppose an upper limit of how much you can leave per child would suffice.

With a 100% inheritance tax the government would not do anything.

I would ensure I spend every last penny I earnt before I die if I were forced to give my remainding estate to the government.

I am against inheritance taxes on moral grounds - it is effectively tacking money from someone for dying.

	11-09-2002 01:39									#88
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Sag,

Like I said, I'm not for a 100% inheritance tax either. But neither am I one of those who wants none at all.

As for spending it all so the government does get it, I say go for it!

-Arrian

p.s. Nice quote.

	11-09-2002 02:04									#89
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quote: the poor seem to end up being a bunch of greedy, immoral, murdering thieves

Exterminate the poor!

	11-09-2002 02:34									#90
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heh this is a big issue where I live. Typical Urban area.

There are some 600,000 residents in my county. A recent paper article said that about 37,000 made 500,000$ (about 10%) a year or more. Yet 30% (mostly in the minotiry districts) made less than 20,000 a year. The rest fell between the two. The people who have nothing are driving up taxes. All there doing with the money is building new schools for the gangs to vandalize. Morons dont want realize new schools dont improve grades. 3200$ per STUDENT! My dad went to stove-over 2 room school with 100 kids PER ROOM. Maybe 50 dollars a year tuition. And he became an ENGINEER . And yet these dumb****s get the best education imaginable. Wtf is wrong? Its the whole damn culture. Blacks and lower income students from the "ghetto" act like thugs in middle school, BECOME true thugs in high school. Everybody stuck with them fails also. Nobody wins.

They drive down property value. The majority of them are honest to god criminals. Every week atleast 2 people are shot here in gang related violence.

Oh ya. Im very angry about how they treat there own women up in 'da hood' here in Chicago. My father and many other 'better offs rich folks' are starting a movement to stop the systematic finicial rape of the suburbs which goes into the black Urban hole.

Why do these people think the Suburbs should pay for this mess they created?? The only damn thing that could be done is to get every person out of those slums and send them to populate the rockies. Salt the earth, and burn them down.



However since I personally draw from the welfare/unemployment pool (after all. I PAID IN when I worked. I want my shiet. Even if I squander the money)


However I am totally AGAINST Welfare. It is nothing but legalized theft. Right on floyd my liberatarian bro..

Wheres my joint...