11-09-2002 06:52									#1
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I always think there's something a bit pathetic about cheating at PC games, but Civ3 has the dubious distinction of changing my mind.

If I have a town/city where all the population are happy (not just content, but happy, all of them) and it flips to a civ with less culture than mine...well I reload the turn, get all my troops out, sell all city improvements, then carry on.

Kind of pathetic isn't it? But that culture flipping is soooo annoying, it's like the AI has cheated me and I'm just getting my own back.
(but I still feel dirty and cheap for cheating at a PC game )

	11-09-2002 08:20									#2
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I don't cheat (unless you count modding the game as cheating).

Usually I couldn't be bothered saving every turn and reloading whenever something goes wrong (such as the culture flip). I prefer to play it out and see how things turn out afterward.

	11-09-2002 08:56									#3
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no, i never cheat (unless i'm experimenting)
victorie is much sweeter when having overcome a couple of 'disasters' and knowing you have done it fair and square

quote: NEW YORK! NEW YOOoRK !!

	11-09-2002 09:06									#4
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Before I could answer that I would have to have a definition of what constitutes cheating. It is not the same for everyone. For instance, I would not reload, but I have. If say I am going late in a game and I am interrupted (phone, dinner whatever), I come back to the game and forgot to do something I meant to do, I may decide to reload and do it or I may not. I would have to have a save to do it with and I may or may not have one. I ususally will save when I walk away from the game. I normally will finish the turn before I walk away, but sometimes you don't. Use of the editor make be a cheat, use of cetain mods may be a cheat. I don't have any mods or use the editor, but some do.

	11-09-2002 09:54									#5
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Ummm, you don't have to save every turn. Thats what the auto save is for!

	11-09-2002 16:08									#6
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I use mods, but nothing that isn't as fair for the AI as for me. I don't reload except for the occasional CTD. I don't see a point in cheating against the AI. If I lose, I lose.

	11-09-2002 16:23									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Sean Ummm, you don't have to save every turn. Thats what the auto save is for!

Only if you have the "autosave" preference turned on

	11-09-2002 17:16									#8
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I think a poll is in order.

Many people have different views on what 'cheating' is.

It would be interesting to get a feel for what people
think on this.

	11-09-2002 17:21									#9
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quote: Originally posted by: WarpStorm I don't see a point in cheating against the AI.

No doubt! Making a mod to test things out is something I do quite frequently, but unless I'm testing major economic changes I seldom finish them for a win. I haven't done the reload turn thing since I was learning to play this game (about a year.) Cheating would make the victory seem so hollow. Besides the AI plays so stupidly at times, it would be like cheating against a four-year old.

	11-09-2002 18:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by LordAzreal I don't cheat (unless you count modding the game as cheating).

The same here.


I should load up my mod, because I think it's neat.

	11-09-2002 19:35									#11
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When playing on a new difficulty level for the first few times, I often restart if I don't have a great starting position. I might be "cheating", but I consider it "cheap".

	11-09-2002 20:40									#12
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Sometimes I reload the game if I push the wrong button. But I try not to reload when my unit gets killed.

	11-09-2002 21:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Wormwood When playing on a new difficulty level for the first few times, I often restart if I don't have a great starting position. I might be "cheating", but I consider it "cheap".

No, that's just conceding the loss a bunch of times in quick succession.

	11-09-2002 22:03									#14
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Mods can be benign or not. If you make a universal change that may be fine, if you play as Civ abc and give them a boost to their UU that is another story. If you are just doing an experiement that is different. The editor can be used the same way. You could make a map that favs you or helps. That is not the same as say removing all of a given resource to see what happens, since it effects everyone. So it all depends.

	11-09-2002 23:10									#15
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I believe that folks who hate the culture flip but otherwise like the game should feel free to deal with that issue as they think best. I tend to play pure warmonger, often with no early culture builds at all. If I start to reload after flips, then it clearly is cheating since I'm taking advantage of the resources ignoring culture gives me without paying the occasional price in full.

	12-09-2002 02:20									#16
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I never reload if something goes wrong, but then thats probably just because my computer takes ages to load a game. I just dont have the patience to wait.

	12-09-2002 04:09									#17
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as someone says above, the view on what constitutes cheating varies from person to person.

personally I believe that if you've bought the game you have every right to play/mod the game any way you wish to. As long as the only person involved is yourself then what does it matter? If it is multi-player gaming then obviously a level playing field is essential but otherwise enforcing your views on someone else is wrong.

as i've said before I've been accused of "cheating" because I use the quick-save & quick-load for single player games like Half-Life or Jedi Knight 2.

some peeps worry me...

	12-09-2002 04:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel as someone says above, the view on what constitutes cheating varies from person to person. personally I believe that if you've bought the game you have every right to play/mod the game any way you wish to. As long as the only person involved is yourself then what does it matter? If it is multi-player gaming then obviously a level playing field is essential but otherwise enforcing your views on someone else is wrong. as i've said before I've been accused of "cheating" because I use the quick-save & quick-load for single player games like Half-Life or Jedi Knight 2. some peeps worry me...

MP is of course a different story, there should be an agreement to such mods/cheat amounst players in any game for MP.


Many people cried about the lack of a save feature for AvP, it doens't bother me because I only save for games like Civ3. But that's mean.

	12-09-2002 05:27									#19
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cheating is the invention of the devil

the easy way out, with no hard work, and no lessons learnt.

	12-09-2002 05:27									#20
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Iīm sometimes reloading, if I try to plant a spy, get caught and the other Civ declares a war on me as a result.
But I donīt reload if I donīt like the Results of Combat.

Iīm also one of the people who mod their game.
One Mod is doubling the HP of the Units. Some People call it cheating, cause it gives more modern Units a greater advantage over older Units, but I donīt think it is cheating. One Point is, that it doesnt create Killer-Units. Even with this Mod iīve seen Longbowmen defeating Riflemen and the like, and the second Point is, that most of the Ancient and medieval ages I am not the technical Leader, but on the same technological Level as the AI (and sometimes even backwards). Itīs the Industrial and modern times, where I develop a distinct technological edge over the AI.

But just like Demerzel, it doesnīt matter to me, if People "cheat" (for example by reloading Battles), as long it is in their Single Player mode.
Someone in another Thread said: Reloading kills the fun in the game. But I strongly disagree. Maybe, for this certain Person it kills the fun in the game, but for some other players it is a far greater funkiller to frequently loose against the AI, cause they try to be absolutely honest in the game and never ever reload the game cause something went wrong.
I even tolerate people who make the UU of their Civilization a real Killer-UU. Hey, it isnīt not my Style of Play, but if those people like it and it enhances their Gaming experience, it is O.K. (as long as they donīt use those mods in Multiplayer of course )

	12-09-2002 13:43									#21
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I do not think there is something very new I could add to this topic... so I will just briefly state that I agree with most posters here. As far as the SP is concerned, everyone is free to mod the game to his liking, as long as he does not use his heavily modded (and possibly easier) game to "impress" others. What "cheating" is, is different for each player. I personally never reload after losing a battle or a having a city flipped (as that would spoil my satisfaction coming from the eventual victory), but I may reload if I just forget to do something that was obvious, that I wanted to do, but simply forgot to (like waking up and moving a fortified unit).

I do admit that I frequently quit games that are "not going well" or are not fun to play (geography related issues). As someone else stated (was it Arrian?), I find no joy in torturing myself with a game I know I have lost. And... well, I bow to the AI patiency - I have never seen it behave the same way...

	12-09-2002 22:00									#22
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I only very seldom reload the game if something goes wrong (Though still I save every turn... I just can't stop doing it...)...

Though back in the days, I only seldom played games, were there wasn't a trainer included (Remember back in the Civ1 days, where someone made a trainer, were you could just press "Help" (It was an Amiga), and then you got 100 gold to "help" you )... Though I stopped cheating a few years ago (That means, I've almost stopped completely... but it still happens from time to time...but very seldom...)...

Though when talking about MP: I just HATE when people are cheating in MP... of course, unless everyone knows that someone is cheating (Might be because that person is a newbie, and everyone else has played the game tons of times... or someone just want to test something...)

	12-09-2002 22:10									#23
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If you cheat at single player you only cheat yourself. The AI cannot be injured by your actions, but perhaps by subverting the negative reinforcement of failure one denies him/herself the priceless gift of wisdom.

	13-09-2002 00:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Bangedup If you cheat at single player you only cheat yourself. The AI cannot be injured by your actions, but perhaps by subverting the negative reinforcement of failure one denies him/herself the priceless gift of wisdom.

quote: Originally posted by ninot cheating is the invention of the devil the easy way out, with no hard work, and no lessons learnt.

heh, you guys make me laugh with your holier than thou attitudes.

"oh no, they reloaded the game to avoid something that had really dropped the fun quotient for them! BURN THE WITCHES! THEY'RE EVIL!"

sheesh! some peeps.

a tip for peeps like you, rearrange the following sentence and apply it to yourselves:

"life get a"

	13-09-2002 01:42									#25
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Demerzel, hum me thinks thou does protest too much. Got something that you are ashamed off? If someone feels X or Y is wrong and you do not, that does not make them the scum of the earth.

	13-09-2002 04:01									#26
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I'm not the one accusing others of cheating on the flimsiest of pretexts.

I play games to enjoy myself and if a game isn't fun I won't play it. If a game could be fun through modifications then I'll do it. Strangely enough I like to relax when playing games not get more tense or stressed.

If you find that cheating then so be it. Just don't feel it necessary to inflict your views on me by calling me a 'cheater'.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

	13-09-2002 08:31									#27
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I am with out sin as I feel everything I do is fine. If you don't believe it , just ask me. I mean what is the crap about sin?

	13-09-2002 11:45									#28
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Going through all your replies (thanks for your input) has unfortunately confirmed what I feared - that my pathetic cheating puts me in the minority.

And now I'm worried. Sure I can say: it's only a game, and who am I harming by a little cheating, but is this just the first step in a downward spiral into moral depravity? It starts with cheating at a computer game, but what's next? Do I start cheating on my partner ("If she never finds out who's going to get hurt?")? Or maybe some Social Security fraud ("it's just a drop in the bucket for the govt, who's it hurting?"). And 12 months from now I'm selling crack to schoolkids and holding up 7-11 stores.

I think I need some help. Does anyone know of some PC Cheaters Anonymous or other support group I can get in touch with?

	13-09-2002 12:34									#29
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quote: Originally posted by The Puny Celt Going through all your replies (thanks for your input) has unfortunately confirmed what I feared - that my pathetic cheating puts me in the minority. And now I'm worried. Sure I can say: it's only a game, and who am I harming by a little cheating, but is this just the first step in a downward spiral into moral depravity? It starts with cheating at a computer game, but what's next? Do I start cheating on my partner ("If she never finds out who's going to get hurt?")? Or maybe some Social Security fraud ("it's just a drop in the bucket for the govt, who's it hurting?"). And 12 months from now I'm selling crack to schoolkids and holding up 7-11 stores. I think I need some help. Does anyone know of some PC Cheaters Anonymous or other support group I can get in touch with?

Celt, man, just organize yourself! Things are not that bad! I am regularly driving faster that what the law allows me, but I still consider myself a good guy... There is a long way between reloading turns in Civ3 and selling crack to... OMG... some schoolkids.

The great thing about computer games is that if you "cheat" in them, it really hurts nobody. Not even yourself, if you do not feel bad about it... Just make sure you do not extend the cheating beyond the game and you will be ok... Games are meant to be fun and whatever it takes for you to have fun with a game, is fine.

OK, I know you were kidding...
Anyway, I will cross my fingers for you!

	13-09-2002 13:01									#30
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Hi, this is my first post here, I just wanted to add something about cheating.

I am very much against cheating in multiplayer games. I have never used a cheat in any of the MP games I have played.

However, in single player my stance is different. In Diablo2 or Dungeon siege for instance (two of the games I played in the last few years), I enjoy breaking the monotony of normal games with a little maxed-out-levels ass kicking. It can be fun to steamroll through a room of high level monsters without even getting scratched. But you have to keep in mind once you start cheating, the normal game will seem boring. Now that you've seen everything and found all the sweet items, what motivates you to spend hours finding it all the hard way? The same applies to all games- if you cheat, fine, but don't be disappointed with the game when you get bored after 3 days. I for one try to hold off on using any cheat/bug in games that I want to enjoy playing for at least a couple months. When you're poor, you dont want to always have to buy new games