11-09-2002 15:56									#1
	Why not trade with Rome for Ivory Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I couldn't find the 30BC to 70AD turnchat orders, so I'm asking here. After looking at the 70AD save, I noticed that Rome has one (1) Ivory that they can trade to us. We can get it and there TM for Dye, 3GPT & 45 Lytons (using 1.29). They can also trade it to Greece, France & Russia. We should get it first. I did some playing around and was also able to sell some dye to Greece for there WM & 27 Lytons (their entire bank). Both of them became Polite to us the trade.

I also was able to buy TM's from everybody for one Lyton each. This is what I found out while doing it.

Techs:
Rome, Germany, England & Russia have Eng & Theo plus the same as us.
Greece has Theo plus the same as us.
France, Aztecs, Iroquois & Babylon have the same techs as us.
America has NO Middle Ages Tech yet (we can sell them Feud & Mono if we want to).
Persia - at war, but is probibly ahead.

Resources:
No Iron - Greece, Aztecs, Russia & Babylon
No Horses - France
No Horses or Iron - America, Iroquois
At war with Persia

Greece & America are at War with the Aztecs (no Alliance but ROP between them).

If we do the trades, we have Greece & Rome feeling good about us (everybody else is annoyed at us) and they were annoyed before. We get anouther Lux. We get an updated map for our fine mapmakers (without them getting ours!) at a low cost, 8 lytons total. We should do this before the turn is "OFFICALLY" over.

E_T

I'm making this an unofficial poll

	11-09-2002 16:55									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Could someone see what the cheepest we can get Ivory from Rome is in 1.21f (including trading dyes to them)?

We could trade dyes to Greece and one or two other countries, but they really don't have anything to pay for it... I'll probably leave it in as an option that the President can take should he really need a cash influx, but won't put it in my orders. If we can get more than 20 gold, then I'd be much more willing to think about it. Also, I'd be happier to make a trade with France then otehr nations, since we can't declare war on them in the next fifteen turns anyway (traded dyes to them). I'd be very inclined to go for almost any trade where we get GPT (especially more than one), as long as it's not a nation I think we may have to go to war with.

I'm gonna have to say no to any twenty turn trades with America for now; if we have to grab them fast, we won't be able to wait twenty turns to go to war.

ET, I'm not sure if you accidentally played ahead (considering that you are new, at least to this Demogame) -- some of the stuff you say implies that ou did, but I really can't tell (sometimes people can estimate things that are just spooky through good understanding of the game ). For future reference, players are not allowed to do anything that cannot be undone -- you can open up a Foreign Advisor screen and see what the advisor (who's always right) thinks of a trade, but you can't actually make it. Any time we talk about buying something from someone and then selling it to someone else, it's always an estimate, though some people (Shiber ) are very good with their estimates.

I don't think it's major, since even if you did play ahead it wasn't anything big and you are new to the game, but that's the rule for your info...

If anyone has any other thoughts, let me know.

-- adaMada

	11-09-2002 18:02									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The cheapest we can get Ivory is Dyes, 3lpt and 44l.

We discussed the trades with Greece etc. in the last turnchat as a way of raising quick cash should we have needed it for upgrading, but as it happened things turned out OK, so I would prefer to trade later with somwone who has more money.

But it is good to have as an emergency option.

	11-09-2002 18:28									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

We need to start trading dyes to the Romans soon. The russians also have extra dyes although they are not yet connected. We should get the dyes to the romans trade before the russinas do. Also the romans have extra wines. Perhaps we should get our extra wines and trade them to the russians before the romans do.

I don't think we are in need of Ivory ATM but we should be looking to get some in the long term. Althhogh the Greeks too have them.

	11-09-2002 18:37									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I like the idea of trading with Rome asap, while we aren't making much money now, active trade lines are to our strategic advantage as it should make the AI less likely to demand or declare war on us as they would take a hit to their rep.

If we can get Rome polite towards us I'd say that is an advantage. The only nations I feel we should be at war with in the immediate future are Persia and America. Everyone else is someone we want to ensure we don't get pulled into war with.

Once we annex America and Persia and colonize the Island we will be in a position where we could easily win the game without ever having to go to war again. Not that we're going to, but we would be in that position where war would be a pastime and not a necessity.

And I vote NO to all ROPs for whatever reason people suggest them, the only nations we need to go to war with are adjacent to us and we don't need ANY AI wandering through our territory, vandalizing our women and molesting our kittens.

	11-09-2002 18:45									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I like the idea of trading with Rome asap, while we aren't making much money now, active trade lines are to our strategic advantage as it should make the AI less likely to demand or declare war on us as they would take a hit to their rep. If we can get Rome polite towards us I'd say that is an advantage. The only nations I feel we should be at war with in the immediate future are Persia and America. Everyone else is someone we want to ensure we don't get pulled into war with.

I think I can remember some roman legions hangong around outside Del Monte.

	11-09-2002 20:00									#7
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by OPD I think I can remember some roman legions hangong around outside Del Monte.

The Greeks are there. The Romans had two legions around Cheerbourg, circa 30 BC, but they aren't there anymore.

	11-09-2002 22:13									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Could someone see what the cheepest we can get Ivory from Rome is in 1.21f (including trading dyes to them)? ET, I'm not sure if you accidentally played ahead (considering that you are new, at least to this Demogame) -- some of the stuff you say implies that ou did, but I really can't tell (sometimes people can estimate things that are just spooky through good understanding of the game ). For future reference, players are not allowed to do anything that cannot be undone -- you can open up a Foreign Advisor screen and see what the advisor (who's always right) thinks of a trade, but you can't actually make it. Any time we talk about buying something from someone and then selling it to someone else, it's always an estimate, though some people (Shiber ) are very good with their estimates. I don't think it's major, since even if you did play ahead it wasn't anything big and you are new to the game, but that's the rule for your info... -- adaMada

I'm sorry if I broke the rules, as I understood them. From reading the rules thread, I was lead to beleave that I couldn't hit the button to go on to the next turn. This needs to be further clarified on the rules page. Yes, I did go into the FA screen and I tried the above listed trades, but I did not go ANY further in the game. As I am running for Minster of IE, I would not want to do anything that would jepardize my canadicy. Last night was the first time that I had downloaded the Savegame. I had previously tried to and had a problem (using Netscape instead of IE) with the download. So I was excited and was looking to help as much as possible. I also couldn't find the turnthread orders for Tuesdays session of the game. I would have liked to have been at the turnchat, but I wasn't sure of when it actually was or if it had been delayed because of no turn orders (everything that I had read was for 130-30). I then noticed the first post from MrWIA about completeing the turn and downloaded it and took a look around in the game. It's one of the reasons for my running for MoIE, because I think that some things could have been (and can be) done a bit better. Again I'm sorry.

As for buying the TM's from the AI's, I routinely do that with all of the AI players and then turn around and sell them all the WM for as much as possible. This normally gets me a few GPT & gold on hand to help my economic situation. This also gives me the most updated map as there is no more physical map to explore at the time. I do this every 10 to 20 turns in my games. Because of Uber Island , the resale of WM isn't an option at this time, but should be explored in the future. This also allows me to see where each of them are at in the Tech race and how they are progressing.

E_T

	12-09-2002 06:26									#9
	Re: Why not trade with Rome for Ivory Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by E_T If we do the trades, we have Greece & Rome feeling good about us (everybody else is annoyed at us) and they were annoyed before.

I like the sound of that, particularly in the case of the Greeks. Well worth the price of the dyes, IMO.

	12-09-2002 06:56									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by E_T *snip* As for buying the TM's from the AI's, I routinely do that with all of the AI players and then turn around and sell them all the WM for as much as possible. This normally gets me a few GPT & gold on hand to help my economic situation. This also gives me the most updated map as there is no more physical map to explore at the time. I do this every 10 to 20 turns in my games. Because of Uber Island , the resale of WM isn't an option at this time, but should be explored in the future. This also allows me to see where each of them are at in the Tech race and how they are progressing. E_T

Don't worry about the rules too much as long as you know what they are for the future -- you're new . Allowences can be made .

On the TMs, I understand how it gives up an up to date map, but how does it tell you where they are in the tech race? Does it really update tech info? (If so, never knew that , and where can you find it?)

Welcome to the demogame, E_T, and good luck in the IE elections.

-- adaMada

	12-09-2002 10:42									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No worries E_T, perhaps things aren't too clear ATM. I will post the next thread (for the few days I have!) as specifically for Ministers to place their orders from 70AD onwards, so no-one gets confused with the date.

And do you perhaps mean that just entering into negotiations shows you what advances the other civs have that you don't and vice versa? I don't think actually trading the TM or WM makes a difference, all you need do is look at the negotiations screen and the options on either side shows you what techs each of you have that the other doesn't.

	12-09-2002 11:01									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I support both trades as well as buying the TM's from everyone.

	12-09-2002 11:05									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The Techs that show for the either side are the next one that can be traded to either side. If Both have the tech, then nothing shows.

For Example, In the early Middle ages (were we are right now) If We have monotheaizm but the Americans don't Then it will show that we can trade it to them. If the Greeks have Theology and we don't, then It will show that they can trade it to us. Now here's the tricky part, If the Greeks also have Education, It won't show until we have Theology. The screen only show what can be currently traded (i.e. next up on the tech tree) for techs.

There will be a test on Monday

E_T

	12-09-2002 11:10									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Based on another thread, the Greeks show as having a stronger military than us; trading with them would help keep them off our back, esp. if it was a luxury trade. It wouldn't guarantee that they leave us alone, but it would go a long way. The Greeks are heading north for now.