11-09-2002 18:00									#1
	how do u play the game and still have gold Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

every time i play im -500 in the gold department
and i found out u need gold to run espieonoge (bad spelling) missions

what do i do to not be in debt

	11-09-2002 18:07									#2
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Build roads, increase taxation (lower science research and luxury rates), build markets, be a Republic or Democracy, build banks, extort gold from other players, build Wall Street, build Adam Smith's, build any wonder that gives you free buildings, just to name a few.

	11-09-2002 18:54									#3
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Don't forget to play with the science and luxury sliders.

	11-09-2002 19:01									#4
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I don't use espionnage missions very often (maybe investigate city I plan to attack), their price is too much for what they yield. That's just my opinion...

--Kon--

	11-09-2002 22:27									#5
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quote: how do u play the game and still have gold

I pray every turn.

	12-09-2002 00:01									#6
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---Be wary of over-building in a small city. If you have a size <7 city way off in the boonies, there's no reason to have a University there. Adding 50% research to a city that only produces 8 toward science means you're spending about 3 gold per turn for a measly 4 science.

---If the population of a city is farming ANY piece of land, put a road under it. Make sure you make roads from city to city and then IMMEDIATELY check the city to see what is farmed, change the farming areas to maximize food/produce/money levels. In the early game, I don't like my cities to grow fast because they get unhappy.

	12-09-2002 01:52									#7
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(Almost) always have a positive cash flow by adjusting your science & luxury sliders. Don't hurry production unless you NEED to or have plenty in the bank. (note: I play at Regent).

Own multiples of luxuries and strategic resources and sell them to your competitors. Same with Techs; and when you sell a tech to one civ, you may be able to make a bundle by selling it also to the others. Some techs are more valuable than others (nudge, nudge). (Another note: successful warfare may be required to obtain some of this stuff).

	12-09-2002 19:59									#8
	Re: how do u play the game and still have gold Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by the letter c every time i play im -500 in the gold department and i found out u need gold to run espieonoge (bad spelling) missions

Just set both of your science and luxury sliders to zero and you should be making money. If you still don't make any money, post a savegame and some of us here will show you.

PS: It's a lot cheaper to buy techs from the AIs than to research it yourself (just in case you didn't know). I have always set both science and luxury sliders to zero since I found my first city around 4000BC. I usually do all my research with 1 scientist.

	12-09-2002 20:12									#9
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One tip. Don't just set your sliders at a certain position and leave them. Quite often, you can lower your science spending a notch, sometimes more, without affecting the amount of time it takes to finish your research. So all that extra gold will end up in your treasury.

And don't listen when someone says turn off your research. There's usually an advantage to getting a tech first. If it involves a unit, that will mean you can start producing them sooner than everyone else, and get them out in the field quicker, giving you a tactical advantage.

And the tech will be worth more money if you decide to sell it. The more civs that have a tech, the less value it has. So if you get something first you can make money from it, sometimes a lot, instead of spending in order to get it.

	12-09-2002 20:26									#10
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---I really micromanage the sliders to an unneccessary level. Once I get a few turns away from finishing a tech, I slide my "science" bar as far down as I can without adding to the turns it takes to learn. For example, if it takes me 12 turns to learn Metallurgy and make a net gain of 2 gold per turn, I'll set it to 12 turns and wait a while. Once it gets down to 3 turns, I'll slide the bar down a notch. If I can still learn it in 12 turns, I might make 15 gold per turn because the tax slider went up.

---The exact same applies to tech when you get 1 turn away. You might be able to slide the tech bar down to 10% and STILL learn in 1 turn, giving you quite a bit of free money in that turn. The most I ever made in 1 turn this way was over 1k.

	12-09-2002 20:36									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Willem And don't listen when someone says turn off your research.

Well, it really defends on the level of difculty. The tougher the level, the longer and hard it takes to research it yourself. For example, if you play with 16 civs on a hug map at deity level, even if you allocate 100% to research, you would still be age away from catching up. That's the reason why you need to stockpile your golds for the rainy day.

PS: I'm not saying that you can't catch up or even take the lead in research at the toughest level; all I am saying is that you will never catch up if you try to research it yourself by setting the science rate at 100% and draining away all your treasury.

	12-09-2002 21:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger Well, it really defends on the level of difculty. The tougher the level, the longer and hard it takes to research it yourself. For example, if you play with 16 civs on a hug map at deity level, even if you allocate 100% to research, you would still be age away from catching up. That's the reason why you need to stockpile your golds for the rainy day.

There's a time and a place for anything, so offering a blanket statement about turning off research doesn't make any sense. First of all, if he's running a -500 deficit and still able to keep his improvements, it probably means that he's playing Chieftain level, so your comments about Diety tactics wouldn't apply.

Even if he was, there would be certain occasions where it would be beneficial to be first with a tech and to acquire a particular technology before everyone else. For instance, if I could get Replaceable Parts and start getting Infantry out in the field before anyone else, I'd have a defensive advantage for awhile, one that might be crucial.

Each situation has to be considered in context. Telling the guy just to shut those sliders off and forget about them isn't necessarily the best advice.

	12-09-2002 21:36									#13
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It's already been said but I will second it. It is cheaper to buy than to research tech. I play at Diety level and I turn off my research as soon as I get either bronze working or horseriding depending on my mood.
If you want to make money you need to be active on the diplmatic screen. Buy your tech from others and shop around when you do. Put embassies in every civ and if you get in a bind and need a tech then steal it. If you worry about a civ getting a wonder then start building a Palace in your best city and wait until they will sell you a tech for less gold. Then switch the palace to the wonder. The longer you wait to buy a tech the cheaper it gets. Sometimes you CAN steal a tech for less that others are willing to sell it for. This is especially so if it is a military advance and only your worst enemy has it.
Try to make per turn payment deals. The more money they make per turn the more money you are liable to make from them. Also if you buy a luxury from them and pay up front and they go to war with you the next turn you lose that investment.
Build marketplaces and banks BEFORE you build libraries.
Unless you plan on making war build the minimum army to make a defense of your territory. You can build more later if you have to, but until then there is no sense in paying for them if you are a Republic or Democracy.
Trade, Trade, Trade!
If you make a war get something out of it. Take the cities that have resources on them and then trade them when the area is secure or when you make peace.
Remember your reputation is GOLD. If you are a cheat and a rat people wont trade with you unless you pay up front. Being incompetent is just as bad! Trading gems from a newly acquired city that flips or gets its road cut will ruin your reputation and make it harder to buy techs or sell luxuries or resources.
If you have Wall Street (you should have Wall Street) then don't spend your reserve below 1000 gpt. You can only make a 5% return on up to 1000 gpt so if you go below that you lose money.
Disband your swordwmen and archers when they become obsolete. Don't keep them around "just in case." They cost 1 gold per turn and will drain your income. Disband these units in a city to help its production of facilities.
By the time you reach the Industrial Age (at Diety level) you should have sufficient libraries and Univerisities to start researching tech. Get the ones you need first like RR, Industrialism, Sanitation. These techs will make your civs production explode and more people means more taxes.
Try to research a tech thread that is different from the AI. You can buy what they research or trade with them your techs. (I don't recommend this unless you know they are close to getting the tech anyway)
Finally be careful when you make alliances or MPP. If you are trading with a civ and make an alliance against them it hurts your reputation. If you are a trading with a civ and they go to war with your MPP partner then it hurts your repurtation. If there is a war going on and you buy a tech from someone try to do it in cash. If you do it per turn that civ may not be around in 20 turns and that WILL hurt your reputation, and as I said before your reputation is GOLD!

	12-09-2002 21:52									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Even if he was, there would be certain occasions where it would be beneficial to be first with a tech and to acquire a particular technology before everyone else. For instance, if I could get Replaceable Parts and start getting Infantry out in the field before anyone else, I'd have a defensive advantage for awhile, one that might be crucial.

The difference between defensive values of Riflemen and Infantry are moot until Motorized transportation is discovered. The enemy will still be using Cavalry which is even with the defensive value of Riflemen. 6attack vs 6 defense. If you aren't in a war then you don't need Infantry and can wait until that tech gets cheaper and then buy it.
At any difficulty level I believe buying tech is more efficient than researching it. You can specialize in the building of marketplaces and banks more easily than libraries and universities and get immediate returns for doing so. Remember there is a limit to the tech you can research (4 turns), but not to the money you can make. Also, while 7 civs are researching 4 different techs you can be making enough cash to buy every tech they make and then sell the tech to someone else. (another money maker buy tech/sell same tech before the original researcher) You talk about "tactical advantage" if you are stuck with a research rate minimum of 4 turns and the AI is constantly making deals for techs and you have no cash pool to buy their techs you are at a "Disadvantage!"

	12-09-2002 22:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Willem There's a time and a place for anything, so offering a blanket statement about turning off research doesn't make any sense.

Why not? Whatever methods you use to beat the AIs at Deity level will also work to all other levels. In fact, it would work much better at the easier level. Moreover, I have played at Regent and Monarch with zero research and it works even better than what would have been at the Deity level. The reason some people like to get ahead of the AIs in technology because they want to send their modern armors at against a helpless archer. If they want to do that, it's cool with me; however, victory seems so hollow if you ask me.

quote: Originally posted by Willem Telling the guy just to shut those sliders off and forget about them isn't necessarily the best advice.

Actually in this context, I think it's the best advice. Since he is running a negative 500 balance, turnning off research may be a good place to start.

	12-09-2002 23:16									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger Why not? Whatever methods you use to beat the AIs at Deity level will also work to all other levels. In fact, it would work much better at the easier level. Moreover, I have played at Regent and Monarch with zero research and it works even better than what would have been at the Deity level. The reason some people like to get ahead of the AIs in technology because they want to send their modern armors at against a helpless archer. If they want to do that, it's cool with me; however, victory seems so hollow if you ask me.

I guess it all depends on playing style. Myself, I like to be ahead of everyone, and actively research in order to get there. Mind you I only play on Regent, with an Expansionist civ, but I have no difficulty being top dog research wise. I don't like the idea that my enemy might have a unit that's more advanced than mine, it makes me feel vulnerable. Plus I've found that having some extra techs available helps a lot if I'm suddenly forced to drum up a military alliance quickly, or an MPP, without bankrupting my empire.

	12-09-2002 23:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Mind you I only play on Regent, with an Expansionist civ, but I have no difficulty being top dog research wise.

I know what you mean...regardless of the level, with the Expansionist, you could get an entire Ancient tech tree from the goody huts. As an expansionist, it's probably a good idea not to focus on research until we run out of goody huts or until we get all the ancient techs.

	13-09-2002 00:18									#18
	Remove this text

I have a slightly different take on the matter.

Clearly, waiting for multiple AI civs to have a given tech is the cheapest way to acquire that tech, whether through research, purchase, trade, or extortion. The first hurdle that many players have to get over is understanding that it's OK to be behind on research... but concluding that that means it's OK to do 0% research is another matter.

Now, one could make the argument for 0% research, and depending on buying, trading or extorting the cheapened techs as they come along. I think that misses, however, a key technique for mastery of the game.

While catch-up research would be cheap, it's a loser's game. Better to buy, trade, or extort those techs.

And researching the same techs as the AI makes no sense, as you are researching at full value, and will get no substantial payoff other than knowing the given tech.

Thus, it seems to me that in most cases, I do not want to be researching what the AI civs have researched or are researching, but rather I would be pointedly researching something that the AI civs are NOT.

Early in the game, I believe that due to the 40 turn minimum research restriction, allocating 20% (and then 10%, or just a scientist) of my productivity to research a tech which the AIs are NOT results in a very high pay-off when I then sell / trade the tech, and is a pretty minimal investment.

In the mid-game, the same applies, although I will increase the allocation higher, to the lowest rate that results in the fastest research time... the pay-offs here can be huge, and will certainly get you to parity on all the techs the AI civs have researched / traded, with significant income to boot.

Towards the end of the industrial age, there is what I call a research "corridor" starting with Mass Production. I'll do almost anything to gain the tech lead at this point, because aggressive research and aggressive sales / trading can put you ahead on each successive tech, and thus give you economic control of the world for a period of time (ending with the free techs given to the scientific civs upon the advent of modern times).

Finally, in modern times I'm racing for Tanks, Synthetic Fibers, and Computers, and then possibly the space race, so research goes into full gear, often at a deficit.

So tell me again, when would I not want to research?

	13-09-2002 00:28									#19
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I have a slightly different take on the matter.

Clearly, waiting for multiple AI civs to have a given tech is the cheapest way to acquire that tech, whether through research, purchase, trade, or extortion. The first hurdle that many players have to get over is understanding that it's OK to be behind on research... but concluding that that means it's OK to do 0% research is another matter.

Now, one could make the argument for 0% research, and depending on buying, trading or extorting the cheapened techs as they come along. I think that misses, however, a key technique for mastery of the game.

While catch-up research would be cheap, it's a loser's game. Better to buy, trade, or extort those techs.

And researching the same techs as the AI makes no sense, as you are researching at full value, and will get no substantial payoff other than knowing the given tech.

Thus, it seems to me that in most cases, I do not want to be researching what the AI civs have researched or are researching, but rather I would be pointedly researching something that the AI civs are NOT.

Early in the game, I believe that due to the 40 turn minimum research restriction, allocating 20% (and then 10%, or just a scientist) of my productivity to research a tech which the AIs are NOT results in a very high pay-off when I then sell / trade the tech, and is a pretty minimal investment.

In the mid-game, the same applies, although I will increase the allocation higher, to the lowest rate that results in the fastest research time... the pay-offs here can be huge, and will certainly get you to parity on all the techs the AI civs have researched / traded, with significant income to boot.

Towards the end of the industrial age, there is what I call a research "corridor" starting with Mass Production. I'll do almost anything to gain the tech lead at this point, because aggressive research and aggressive sales / trading can put you ahead on each successive tech, and thus give you economic control of the world for a period of time (ending with the free techs given to the scientific civs upon the advent of modern times).

Finally, in modern times I'm racing for Tanks, Synthetic Fibers, and Computers, and then possibly the space race, so research goes into full gear, often at a deficit.

So tell me again, when would I not want to research?

	13-09-2002 00:51									#20
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better to tweak the base cost of stealing tech from 10 -> 7 and then use espionage as a second option apart from buying tech.

as is well known, on high levels research ( until late industrial age ) is pretty pointless - i like to be able to avoid giving an AI 2000+ gold for a tech, so I steal it now with the reduced costs meaning it costs about the same to do so but at least the AI doesnt get a bank balance boost.

	13-09-2002 01:31									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger The reason some people like to get ahead of the AIs in technology because they want to send their modern armors at against a helpless archer. If they want to do that, it's cool with me; however, victory seems so hollow if you ask me.

I can not see the diffeence frankly. So if I am playing cards with childrend and hold off on winning to some other arbitary point that makes the win better? Hows that work? The AI is like a child compared to you. You elect to not make moves that could win nowin favor of winning later and that is better? Hey if you want to be magnanimous why not let it win?

	13-09-2002 01:36									#22
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Theseus, I like that method for the most part, especially going into modern ear. The only gotcha for warmongrs is that trading is mostly off the table.

	13-09-2002 01:39									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus So tell me again, when would I not want to research?

When I finally catch up to the AIs on techs and when there are only a few civs left on the planet and when I am the #1 superpower in the world, and when I can be able to discover new tech within every 10 turns or less, that's when I start to research; otherwise, I just concentrate on taking over the world first.

	13-09-2002 01:58									#24
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I can not see the diffeence frankly. So if I am playing cards with childrend and hold off on winning to some other arbitary point that makes the win better? Hows that work? The AI is like a child compared to you. You elect to not make moves that could win nowin favor of winning later and that is better? Hey if you want to be magnanimous why not let it win?

You are probably right about that! I guess I like to see my opponents well feed and strong and even stronger than me before I take them out. Some people seek thrill by jumping out of an airplane. For me, the thrill of defeating an army 7 times stronger than me is what motivate me to play civ.

I guess I'm weird. I don't like to take advantage of the weak one, but like to bring down the powerful one. I guess I have a wicked mind; I need help!

	13-09-2002 02:42									#25
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Theseus, I like that method for the most part, especially going into modern ear. The only gotcha for warmongrs is that trading is mostly off the table.

I forgot to mention... achieving a tech lead for 5-6 techs in a row at the end of the industrial era is powerful enough to overcome reputation and attitude problems.

1. As you make the rounds selling each tech, there will be a variety of wealthy and poor AI civs. Sell to the rich, and gift to the poor. They'll change roles each round, so you'll typically cover most if not all. Towards the end, start giving them discounts on deals.

2. By the time you're done, you will have all their gold, luxuries, and techs. Gift those techs to anyone who doesn't know them too.

3. Especially for the smart warmonger, at this point you'll probably have lots of excess resources. Gift luxuries to the civs that need them, but if they are scientific and need more than one, try to keep one in reserve (or even better, a strategic resource) for the free modern tech.

It's a very powerful technique... I've taken civs from furious to polite. At a minimum, annoyed or cautious to polite is a cake walk.

	13-09-2002 03:09									#26
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Thesus you forgot one important thing. This thread string is about making money and not the virtues of researching or not researching. IMHO if you make it to the Modern Age (or even Industrial Age) and you are still broke you need to take a step back and re-evaluate your civ.
As for trading techs that is simply something I try never to do. Why sell to the AI, which at Diety level has a huge advantage on research and production, techs for which they never pay a fair price for?
As for giving tech why would a Warmonger give a tech? Why would you give an advantage to your enemy? If you are a true warmonger everyone (that is left) hates you and is just biding their time until they get nukes and then they are going to waste you if they can.
While I definately concede in doing research in Modern Era (which I mentioned in previous post) I do not recommend it if your civ will go broke in the process.

	13-09-2002 03:22									#27
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Yes, but at this point the game is over and their attitudes are of no interest to me. Your are too powerful for them to act against. If they are evenly match with each other they may not even fight each other.

	13-09-2002 04:03									#28
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I sell techs to make money. In fact, I think you can make more money gaining a selected tech lead (techs the AI doesn;t research) than by not researching... a LOT more.

I swear, try it on some tech you don't "mind" selling, and you'll be amazed at the result.

Personally, I'll sell just about anything except for Mil Trad, Rep Parts, Motor Trans, Syn Fibers, and maybe some of the space race techs (and I'll even sell any or all of those, in certain circumstances).

I do it throught the game, but there's nother better than selling, say, Combustion, and nailing the top AI civs for 100s of gpt EACH, all their treasuries (1000s of gold), all their luxuries, and all their techs... and doing it again 5-6 turns later with Mass Production, and then again, and again, and again...

You end this cycle rich, in WLKTD, productive (including buying any improvement you want, anywhere), and at tech lead or parity.

They end it poor and miserable, unable to research or build effectively, but happier with you because of gifts and good trades (btw, vxma1, attitude still matters to me, either for trading, alliances, or even *gasp* the occasional late-game MPP).

And it is a warmonger strat, albeit a bit Machiavellian. If you're at war during this cycle, it's pretty easy to gain alliances and embargoes. And either way, afterward, when you are ready to attack, you hold all the cards.

	13-09-2002 06:16									#29
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Once I get the tech lead they don't have any money. I have busted up so many units, taken or raze towns, pillage when I am gathering for the next round. They are broke. I will trade if and when I can, but not any tech that may yield a wonder. If it is early game and I have GL, I will sell techs as they are not broke yet and I want the techs prior to Education to move around so I can get the next AI tech. After GL is obsolete, I start to crank up my research and take my knights to visit.

	13-09-2002 19:19									#30
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When it comes to selling tech, I do not withhold anything. If they have enough golds to buy it, they can have it. Especially for the tech that may yield a Great Wonder, they are more willing to pay big money for it. Even if they don't have enough gold, sometimes I just give them for free. Let's them build the Great Wonder for me. Why should I build it myself when they can build it faster than me? Instead of building the GW myself, I just build more armies. By the time they finish their GW project, I just send my troops over to take control of it.