11-09-2002 18:53									#1
	Bizarre diplomacy Got spare money?

What's the weirdest diplomatic situation you've had in one of your games?

I think my weirdest has to be the one I'm currently playing. Lal declared war on me pretty early on, then proceeded to drag the Gaians into the conflict by pacting with them. After a long long battle I managed to get Lal to surrender, but I hadn't even started on Dee. She continued to seethe despite me giving her back the one base I'd stolen, and refused to sign a peace treaty. She duly surprise-attacked me, and I went on a murderous rampage (surprise attacks always do that to me). Halfway through, this little message pops up at the bottom of the screen - the Gaians and University have agreed to combine forces against us! Gah!

Zak was relatively easy to squish. I took almost half his bases and then signed a Truce. Deirdre promptly pulled him back into the war, so I took a couple more of Zak's bases and a few of Dee's, then signed Truce with both of them.

Now, up until 5 years ago Morgan was my Pact Brother and had fought by my side in all the Vendettas. He'd even managed to take three of Dee's bases despite having inferior weaponry. He and Dee were almost at each other's throats when I signed Truce with her. I subsequently went Green - and within two years, Morgan had dissolved our Pact. I got angry with Dee for keeping a large stack of troops right next to one of my bases, demanded their withdrawal, and she promptly declared Vendetta.

All well and good. I eliminated those troops and started my campaign against her - but then, during the opponent-movement part of the turn, I spotted something.
A Gaian unit entering a fully-defended Morganite base.
I checked the Gaians' diplomatic status, and there it was. Pacted with Morgan, bare years after I had been. Dee's running Green, too!
Now I'm just waiting for Morgan to join the war. no doubt he'll drag Roze in (she's Pacted with him) and the cycle will start all over again...

	11-09-2002 19:38									#2
	Got spare money?

Well, I'm happy for you and all who find interesting the reactions / roleplayiong of AI opponents.

I understand that despite being infinitely superior, more challenging, diverse, MultiPlayer (pbem) really takes too long for most except die-hard smacers.
I've been playing pbems 3 years long and more, I've strived to keep alive some games thru difficulties, dropouts, "sub-players" (in the sense that they went submerged for a long time before resurfacing and resume playing just as if )
I've managed to complete some of the original pbems after MORE than 2 years to play barely more than 100 turns...
And I'm beginning to become a bit weary myself too...

But the antics of dumb SMAC AIs, frankly, I wouldn't rate them more than "curious"....
Mind, I'm sure it's my limit, I must be spoiled by now, it's not a criticism on those who still manage to enjoy it.

But I found interesting situations in which 5 or more human players were all Pacted while at the same time hating each other and just waiting for the time when they would be able to jump at each other's throat, or even better let the other do it...
Situations in which you FORGED e-mail messages to be leaked, and dragged your opponents to react in ways which opened a highway for your real intentions...
The sound of the word "backstabbing" just lacks the real taste if there's only one human involved in the feat...

Tjose who then know me and played me, know also that I'm not even the best palyer in this game: I have a paramount defect, I entangle and choke myself in all those diplomatic negotiations, feints, double-crossing.
When I believe I'm pulling all the threads like a puppetmaster, I realise I'm just naked and all my opponents, scheming together, laugh at me behind my back...
And when I succeeded, I think it mainly happened because my opponents "caved in" under the weight of my verbosity

Nevertheless, it's undeniable that a SMAC game without human diplomatic interactions is just a dull game, for how "curious" the AIs behaviors might be.

	11-09-2002 20:07									#3
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Interesting how PvP'ers have the same attitude no matter the genre. I don't really understand the overwhelming need to put down those of us who don't like it.

Hmmm, but maybe there is a correlation....

	11-09-2002 21:29									#4
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Hey, I though I didn't "put down", but took extra care to also recognise the other PoV reasons...

Nevertheless....
I think that stating that the state-of-the-art-AI is not that evoluted yet to satisfactingly simulate the depth of real human interaction, it's no outrage, and it's a bit more than just an opinion, it's an assessment about the capability of a technology....

	11-09-2002 21:43									#5
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Double Post, and Apolyton's fault...

Last edited by MariOne on 12-09-2002 at 19:20

	11-09-2002 22:20									#6
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Thanks for the clarification! As a long-time on-line multi-player gamer, I guess I got a chip on my shoulder about being told that what I consider fun is worthless, stupid, etc. Kind of ironic - I'd have expected more of that from non-gamers than from other gamers, but such is not the case.

So this part:

quote: Originally posted by MariOne Nevertheless, it's undeniable that a SMAC game without human diplomatic interactions is just a dull game, for how "curious" the AIs behaviors might be.

got to me, especially since I would most certainly deny it. I'm still having lots of fun with single-player mode and don't find it dull at all. The AI being "smart" is not necessarily a requirement to have fun, it only needs to be entertaining. Although no doubt it will eventually pall, for now it's quite fun.

	11-09-2002 22:56									#7
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OK. I now wish I'd never started this thread in the first place. I'll just go crawl back under my 'curious' rock and die.

	11-09-2002 23:06									#8
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Tommara, I think you are looking at MariOne's posts in the wrong light...

He was not putting down SP players, I think, but trying to allure some of them to the joys (and trials and tribulations and bugs *sigh*) of pbem.

One simple superiority of diplomacy with other humans: In SP, I want to trade for High Energy Chemistry from Didi. She won't even talk about trading ANY tech until she completes Empath Guild. Sound familiar? In MP, the human tells me "Mong, I'm not trading Empathy 'til after I build EG. What else is on your mind?"

	11-09-2002 23:40									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Mongoose Tommara, I think you are looking at MariOne's posts in the wrong light...

Oh, absolutely! His response made it clear that I had misjudged. I'm sorry that my response failed to acknowledge that equally as clearly.

Sorry Clear Skies, for hi-jacking your thread.

	12-09-2002 03:32									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Back to the main thust of the thread, I hope...

My favorite was a typical game where I start as the Gaians. In a predictable fit of warmongering, Yang puts up a motion to suspend the U.N. Charter. Knowing my love for PBs, I of course allow the motion to pass. Many turns later, a carrier full of PBs wipes Yang's continent clean, and leaves Mount planet a par 4 putting green. The next year, who goes and moves to reinstate the charter? You guessed it. A very sheepish and slightly radioactive Yang.

As for your experiences, ClearSkies, I find that the AI makes a hell of a lot more bones out of your SE choices than any prior relationship. The AI's watchwords seem to be 'What have you done for me lately'.

	12-09-2002 17:13									#11
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What the hell has just happened?

Nevermind.

	13-09-2002 01:47									#12
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By far the weirdest thing that happened to me was when I was in a pact with Dee and fighting against Yang. Someone framed me for a probe team action against the Gaians, and Dee declared Vendetta. None of our units were removed from each others' territories, and we had still had some units in each other's bases.

	13-09-2002 04:13									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hm. I can't remember interesting AI diplomatic situations. Except just having pulverized the last Uni defender, and having ~10 other units around their last base "We'll fight to the last man..."
I want a submissive. Doesn't it count that submissives get their bases back from me????

	14-09-2002 06:31									#14
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Yeah, but if "what have you done for me lately" works vis-a-vis the human, why not the other AIs? If I choose to go green (which I do because I like capturing natives) and Morgan or Believers break off relations because of it they can hardly pact with the Gaians who are Greener Than Thou.

	14-09-2002 06:58									#15
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I also enjoy single-player mode. But I find the international relations situation there is much like Middle Eastern diplomacy.

	14-09-2002 16:42									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President I also enjoy single-player mode. But I find the international relations situation there is much like Middle Eastern diplomacy.

You mean pointless and almost non-existent?
The AI is depressingly hypocritical. As many have already pointed out, they'll scream at your for running the 'wrong' SE choices, and then Pact with an AI player running exactly the same choices in order to wipe you out. Most odd.

Still, we know we love them really.