11-09-2002 20:39									#61
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"But the right to property is fundamental. I believe thatm because of greed, this man violated an absolute right, and, by doing, relinquished his right to protection under the law."

Then you would have to kill all your government.

	11-09-2002 20:40									#62
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Bah, the gov is a means to an end. Without it, there would be anarchy, and in anarchy i'm pretty sure that i wouldn't have as much property as i have now.

	11-09-2002 20:41									#63
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He's from Texas, they did that once.

	11-09-2002 20:41									#64
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to clarify: though they take some, i end up with more than i would otherwise

	11-09-2002 20:42									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Then you would have to kill all your government.

Don't tempt us

	11-09-2002 20:43									#66
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I tempt you.

	11-09-2002 20:44									#67
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Besides roland, it is actually in our constitution that we have a responsibility to overthrow the government if they are violating our findamental rights...

	11-09-2002 20:45									#68
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"Besides roland, it is actually in our constitution that we have a responsibility to overthrow the government if they are violating our findamental rights..."

We just have a grand tradition of rioting...

	11-09-2002 20:45									#69
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They are. Do it!

	11-09-2002 20:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Besides roland, it is actually in our constitution that we have a responsibility to overthrow the government if they are violating our findamental rights...

a) where ? article/section, please.

b) if it were so you're hopelessly behind schedule. slackers.

	11-09-2002 20:52									#71
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I think he means it is in the Declaration of Independance:

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

	11-09-2002 20:55									#72
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cmon, i can't be bothered to look it up. it is in there though. Our constitution and other founding documents are based heavily on locke's two treatises on gov't.

	11-09-2002 20:56									#73
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Possible.

Or he's really german (Art 20 section 4 Grundgesetz)

	11-09-2002 20:57									#74
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go here: http://www.cassiodorus.com/Chapter1/

	11-09-2002 20:57									#75
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Dont forget the German student (I think) who wa slost in Houston and went up to a door to ask directions. He was shot and killed by an elderly man who said he feared for his life. I dont think he was even charged.

It was an Asian student, Vietnamese I think.

	11-09-2002 20:59									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Besides roland, it is actually in our constitution that we have a responsibility to overthrow the government if they are violating our findamental rights...

No such thing is stated in the Constitution.

	11-09-2002 21:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I agree that 'twelve times in the back' dosen't quite sound like self defense, but how does one know what the limit is, in the heat of things?

Its for the jury to decide if such actions were warranted and/or justified.

If warranted you get a not guilty decision. If justified but not warrantied you probably get a much reduced sentence.

	11-09-2002 21:02									#78
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yup, i was wrong. definately declaration of independance....i just knew i heard it in my gov't class oh so many years ago...

	11-09-2002 21:14									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It was an Asian student, Vietnamese I think.

I may be mixing it up with the man (German) who was killed at the rest stop around the same time ? It caused a big stink in Europe and a drop-off in visits from Europe to Disneyworld in Fla.

	11-09-2002 21:50									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "You would get such varying sentences from different jurisdictions." Depends again on the appeals strcuture.

Why?

Get a high sentance and you have to appeal. It may or may not work to get you a lower sentence which you may have gotten in another jurisdiction.

	11-09-2002 22:42									#81
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quote: Dont forget the German student (I think) who wa slost in Houston and went up to a door to ask directions. He was shot and killed by an elderly man who said he feared for his life. I dont think he was even charged.

quote: It was an Asian student, Vietnamese I think.

I heard a similar story, except the victim was a Scottish oilman. I suspect now that it might be a myth.

	11-09-2002 22:51									#82
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Either that or a lot of violent armed old men kicking around.

	11-09-2002 23:11									#83
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You know, the guy here convicted had a previous conviction for burglary himself. Perhaps this conviction of his is poetic justice. I just bet he's glad that his victims were'nt so quick to try and stab him to death.

	11-09-2002 23:27									#84
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Not only that- he had a record of violence and carrying knives. Has anyone considered that he may have lured the "burglar" to his house with the intention of settling a score?

	11-09-2002 23:29									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Akaoz I think that being willing to kill to protect your TV is pretty savage and primitive, yes.

"Without TV, it's hard to know when one day ends and another begins." - Homer Simpson

	11-09-2002 23:30									#86
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I considered it but there was no evidence for it in that article. It is his word against... er.. the dead guy's.

	11-09-2002 23:35									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy Not only that- he had a record of violence and carrying knives. Has anyone considered that he may have lured the "burglar" to his house with the intention of settling a score?

Maybe if it were mentioned in the article. I would think that the prosecution would have brought evidence of that type to the trial and it would have been in the article. But, well, it wasn't.

The article said:

quote: Peter Kyte, QC, for the prosecution, told the jury: “The law recognises a man is entitled to defend himself, his family and his property only if his action does not go beyond the reasonable and the necessary. “There is no doubt Mr Hastings stumbled across a burglary. There is no doubt that Roger Williams was a thoroughly bad hat in the eyes of the law. But, as a human being, he is just as entitled to the freedom to live as anyone else. We argue that, in this case, alas, this man overstepped the mark and went some distance beyond that.”

	11-09-2002 23:44									#88
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Typical prosecution summing-up. They're always wary of antagonising juries by overly-demonising the accused.

	11-09-2002 23:44									#89
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Yes, I think it's a bit far-fetched to suggest he may have lured the burglar to his doom, at least, not without any apparent motive.

	11-09-2002 23:45									#90
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If it was a credible accussation why wouldn't it have been brought up at trial to prove that the guy's justification was bollocks.