11-09-2002 19:19									#1
	Man kills burglar in UK, gets life for manslaughter. Remove this text

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-411040,00.html

So the guy comes home, finds a burglar and kills him in the struggle that ensues.

Peter Kyte, QC, for the prosecution, told the jury: “The law recognises a man is entitled to defend himself, his family and his property only if his action does not go beyond the reasonable and the necessary."

“There is no doubt Mr Hastings stumbled across a burglary. There is no doubt that Roger Williams was a thoroughly bad hat in the eyes of the law. But, as a human being, he is just as entitled to the freedom to live as anyone else."

Is this last part true? At what point if any should your rights be temporarily suspended?

There are some interesting circumstances here as well. The guy had a family, but they weren't there, though he claims he thought they were. He also has previous convictions himself. Do these things matter?

	11-09-2002 19:23									#2
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I remember a few years ago, a woman was jumped by a man. She used her tazer and he dies because HIS PACE MAKER SHORTED!


She got life for murder.

	11-09-2002 19:27									#3
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quote: But, as a human being, he is just as entitled to the freedom to live as anyone else.

When he endangers somebody else's life through his immediate actions, then somebody else is justified in using whatever means necessary to halt his actions. Self defence or defence of another are both justified reasons for killing somebody.

Endangering somebody else's property does not waive his right to life, though. This guy's right to life still trumps somebody else's right to property.

	11-09-2002 19:27									#4
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Here in Dixie no-one would look twice at killing a burglar (and rightfully so).

	11-09-2002 19:27									#5
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He stabbed him 12 times in the back then threw away the bloody clothing.

Hardly self defence is it?

	11-09-2002 19:30									#6
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The defenses to a murder/manslaughter charge vary a lot from nation to nation ( or in the US from state to state).

I believe that the UK is similar to Canada where you can only use reasonable force in resisting an attack on yourself or others. So if i found a burglar in my house, I could not shoot him unless he showed agression to me . If he backed away slowly I would have no legal justification for killing him.

Contrast this with say Texas where IIRC my soc prof indicated that

- pervention of the commission of a crime
- defense of property
- rendering assistance to a law enforcement officer

are all justifications for the use of deadly force. If this is accurate information, a Texas homeowner can shoot any burglar while in Canada they cannot, without furthur provocation-- Note that a burglar heading towards the stairs when a man's wife and baby were upstairs was held to be further provocation and led to acquittal in one canadian case..


The quote is true if you take it to mean that you cannot kill someone just because they are burglarizing your house. Previous convictions should be irrelevant

	11-09-2002 19:31									#7
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The article says he faces up to life in prison. I cannot imagine that would happen in a case like this. Manslaughter has a very broad definition and the sentences can range accordingly.

"At what point if any should your rights be temporarily suspended?"

The phrasing of the prosecutor there is a bit ambiguous. It's not about suspending any right but about the limits of the right to self defense.

"The guy had a family, but they weren't there, though he claims he thought they were. He also has previous convictions himself. Do these things matter?"

First one matters for the subjective side of the crime. Second one for sentencing.

	11-09-2002 19:32									#8
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You can't mention previous convictions to a jury in a UK court. Only the judge gets to see them after the verdict to take them into account on sentencing.

	11-09-2002 19:32									#9
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Stabbed him 12 times, in the BACK?

This guy deserved his conviction.

	11-09-2002 19:34									#10
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Well we also don't know to which conclusions the jury came on the facts. Did it believe the family-at-home story ? Did it believe the mistaken Machete ? Did it believe the panicking ?

	11-09-2002 19:40									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Contrast this with say Texas where IIRC my soc prof indicated that - pervention of the commission of a crime - defense of property - rendering assistance to a law enforcement officer are all justifications for the use of deadly force.

I think there must be strong caveats. Else based on 1) or 2):

Prosecutor: "Why did you kill this man?"
Defence: "He tried to steal my pen!"
Judge: "CASE DISMISSED - NOT GUILTY.".

	11-09-2002 19:41									#12
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The jury is guilty of insanity. What exactly is someone supposed to do to protect their family from an intruder in the home? Should he wait until his wife is raped or his kids are molested for fear that a jury will send him to prison for protecting them? The intruder is supposed to fear the law not the victim of crime. As it stands now criminals in Britain are protected while they rape and pillage a private home unless the resident knows for sure that all is well really and the criminal is probably not that bad once you get to know him. In a confrontation like that in the article there is no time to think of all the correct ways to defend your household. The benefit of the doubt should be given to the victim. The burgular may have been a nice guy but he took the risk and he lost the protection of the law when he entered the house. Too bad that Britain protects these people. No wonder there are so many burglaries in Britain. I guess they are a protected class now...

	11-09-2002 19:41									#13
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I was hoping some disagreement would emerge, that's why I posted this. It's a tricky one morally (forget legally, I'm less interested in that).

So this was a bloody piece of self defence, perpetrated by someone with a criminal history. On top of that I get the impression that the guy knew his family was not there.

But, the burglar committed the initial wrong here. It's quite plausible to suggest the burglar must bear all risk that "reasonable force" turns into something else. It must be terrifying to come home and find a burglar; perhaps you wouldn't act rationally.

On balance I think this guy got a bad deal.

	11-09-2002 19:41									#14
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger quote: But, as a human being, he is just as entitled to the freedom to live as anyone else. When he endangers somebody else's life through his immediate actions, then somebody else is justified in using whatever means necessary to halt his actions. Self defence or defence of another are both justified reasons for killing somebody. Endangering somebody else's property does not waive his right to life, though. This guy's right to life still trumps somebody else's right to property.

Not true. I have the right to shoot to kill in my house if someone broke in.

Also, if you kill him, you're the only one to tell the story.

	11-09-2002 19:43									#15
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Dont forget the German student (I think) who wa slost in Houston and went up to a door to ask directions. He was shot and killed by an elderly man who said he feared for his life. I dont think he was even charged.

	11-09-2002 19:44									#16
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"As it stands now criminals in Britain are protected while they rape and pillage a private home unless the resident knows for sure that all is well really and the criminal is probably not that bad once you get to know him."

Congratulations on your imaginative powers. It would be more interesting to hear on what you base this.

	11-09-2002 19:48									#17
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH He stabbed him 12 times in the back then threw away the bloody clothing. Hardly self defence is it?

This seems suspiscious, but if I felt my wife and children were in danger, the wounds would have been more severe than that. Intruder running away or not. The article mentions no evidence as to an explanation other than a burglary in progress when the killing occured.

Throwing away the bloody clothes is suspicious, but comon, if that's all the prosecution has, their case is pretty thin.

I have heard of similar cases in the US. I can't name it, but supposedly a bank robber was killed in a shootout with police. His wife sued the police department for failing to provide medical assistance quickly enough, and won a wrongful death civil settlement. The shootout was not over when this man was hit.

Life imprisonment is load of sh1t. I hope this gets reversed on appeal.

	11-09-2002 19:48									#18
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Dont forget the German student (I think) who wa slost in Houston and went up to a door to ask directions. He was shot and killed by an elderly man who said he feared for his life. I dont think he was even charged.

And how is that compared to this?

THe guy wasn't in the house, and the man opened the door.

Totaly different.

	11-09-2002 19:48									#19
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It is based on an immediate confrontation where you do not know what he has done or what he is going to do. What should you do -- walk down to the streetcorner and call the police while he does whatever he wants? Or should he assume the best is probably happenning?

	11-09-2002 19:53									#20
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"But, the burglar committed the initial wrong here. It's quite plausible to suggest the burglar must bear all risk that "reasonable force" turns into something else."

The burglar bears that risk but it is still possible that the force used goes beyond reasonable for reasons that imply an element of guilt on the defender's side. Once it goes beyond the line there is not much leeway to escape manslaughter. Yet the circumstances can be considered in the actual sentencing.

I'd assume that the jury did not buy the defendant's entire story as if all that were true it could exclude a conviction.

	11-09-2002 19:53									#21
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AFAIK UK law allows whatever action is required to protect yourself, but you are not allowed to exceed that limit.

If a guy breaks into your house you can't just blast his brains out.

If he breaks in and starts a fight you can give him a good kicking. But if you are in a superior position, stabbing his back several times is not justified.

	11-09-2002 19:53									#22
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What would Jesus have done?

Stabbed him 12 times in the back?

	11-09-2002 19:55									#23
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"Life imprisonment is load of sh1t. I hope this gets reversed on appeal."

Maybe you should edit the thread title to avoid further confusion:

From the story: "Hastings, who was remanded in custody to be sentenced next month, faces a maximum penalty of life imprisonment."

	11-09-2002 19:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin but you are not allowed to exceed that limit.

So who wrote down the limits? That right there means it can be read as "verbal insults" would be enough.


Silly europeans...

	11-09-2002 19:57									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy What would Jesus have done? Stabbed him 12 times in the back?

We're not talking about a candidate in US elections.

	11-09-2002 19:57									#26
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If anyone is interested I will tell you what I did when I was confronted by a burglar with a gun in my home...

	11-09-2002 19:59									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "Life imprisonment is load of sh1t. I hope this gets reversed on appeal." Maybe you should edit the thread title to avoid further confusion: From the story: "Hastings, who was remanded in custody to be sentenced next month, faces a maximum penalty of life imprisonment."

Even the possibilty of that is crap.

	11-09-2002 19:59									#28
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There is no mention of stabbing anyone in the back. There is mention of the burglar carrying a "jemmy" that I assume is the same as a small "crowbar".

I'm so glad I no longer live in England.

	11-09-2002 20:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln If anyone is interested I will tell you what I did when I was confronted by a burglar with a gun in my home...

Please do.

	11-09-2002 20:00									#30
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Ok, I am interested.