11-09-2002 19:43									#1
	Tired of Caesar's arrogance, what would you do? Support Apolyton

Caesar is getting real, real old. In last couple of games I have run against the same situation. My response has been to wait and deal with Caesar after his UU is outdated, BUT is there a better approach?

Typical Game situation:

Playing civ with later UU {Amer/Ger/Eng}

Level: Regent

Distant between capitals: 25-35 tiles

Early development: Rome had 3-5 cities larger empire and is about 4 techs ahead.

By time I get 6-8 producing cities, Rome usually is about 100 score points ahead and is starting to build legionaires. At least by the time I have 15 chariots, I am seeing legionaires on the borders. Even though I can easily upgrade to horses, don't think stacks of horses would work well against legionaires.

Can't do early archer rush because of distance between civs.
{Playing with 6 civs: England, Rome, Germany, Russia, China, Random. Picked for those who give me the most trouble in the later game.}.

Part of my development problem may be I haven't been building the settler/worker/military farms right. I have been sending out units as soon as town hits size 3 to not get too far behind in early land grab. Wondering if need to wait until towns are 4-6 before sending out settlers/workers.

What do you recommend? keeping on avoiding the legionaires in ancient era and playing catchup or...?

It is especially galling to give away a tech when behind in techs to Rome just try to get Sistine or Smiths.

BTW- earlier suggestions to go for Colossus in ancient era are correct. This is the only GW I can get in that era.

Thanks.

--PF

	11-09-2002 19:46									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A resource raid on his iron is possible, if he doesn't have too much. In the Ancient Era, the Romans and the Persians need to be marginalized early. Resource raids, worker kidnappings, cut off lines of communication, anything that will set them back.

	11-09-2002 19:52									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Iron removal usually doesn't work, as there has always been one Iron in empire but too far away.

Good idea. In current game, Rome has 3 iron and I had none til placed a city next to one iron 2 tiles from Roman city. That left with Rome with 2 iron and at least I could build swords.

Rome decided to ignore free space towards England and pounced early on space closest to me. It came down to a race for rivered grassland sites. I got one but Rome got the other.

--PF

	11-09-2002 20:08									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Pre-build as many Warriors as possible.... your capitol, if at 5+ pop, should be able to pump out one per turn.

Mass upgrade to Swordsmen.

Take any Roman resource cities.

Wash hands.

	11-09-2002 20:19									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Pre-build as many Warriors as possible.... your capitol, if at 5+ pop, should be able to pump out one per turn. Mass upgrade to Swordsmen. Take any Roman resource cities. Wash hands.

Cool, I saved enough games I should be able to replay. I was right, losing military production because of not waiting for capitol to reach size 5. I love replaying the ancient era. I'll let you know how that works, but will take awhile to complete the game play.

--PF

	11-09-2002 20:30									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Generally it's best to attack Rome before they get iron. I often find that an early swordsman (or even archer) strike makes sense. It usually takes them some time to hook up their iron, because they're not industrious and because the AI never has enough workers (hint: buying their workers whenever possible will slow them further).

Once they have legionaries... ouch. In this particular situation, you are facing an empire that is bigger and more advanced, and by attacking them you will trigger their golden age. Double ouch. I'd say wait for Knights at this point.

The key to beating the Romans is doing it early.

-Arrian

	11-09-2002 20:33									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

When REXing in this situation, I think it's important to focus building towns on great sites, with good food and good production, and on getting at least one lux connected early.

Four towns each building a Warrior every 1-2 turns can build a formidable early military.

	11-09-2002 20:36									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Theseus When REXing

Where is a good link explaining REX? The reference in strategy says article is moved but can't find original long article. Maybe there are other shorted articles explaining the REX concept.

	11-09-2002 20:48									#9
	Support Apolyton

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...25&pagenumber=2

It's actually about halfway down the page.

	11-09-2002 21:14									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Theseus,

Ok missed it in skim read. The rex.doc does not have a definition of "worker factory" only "settler factor". I thought worker factory was another part of the REX strategy.

-- PF

	11-09-2002 21:21									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

Try this:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=58720

	11-09-2002 22:08									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yes, if Rome is close send troops before they get UU. If far away, wait for UU to be obsolete. Hey why not be Rome.

	11-09-2002 22:11									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Theseus,

Good guess but worker factory not found on any of the 3 pages. Other than output being workers instead of settlers, is there any difference between settler factories and worker factories?

	11-09-2002 22:15									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Nope, pretty much the same. I typically make a hybrid factory, alternating between workers and units.

	11-09-2002 22:20									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Being Roman and pumping out 40 or so veterans legionnaries, i (you) can wipe your 2 closest neighbors in the early game if they are not too big (about 13 cities = cakewalk)

	12-09-2002 18:44									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Place a couple defenders and catapults on a mountain
near a city. The AI will walk by to reach the city most of the time.
That way you can soften them up. Then kill with swordsmen.
When you place most of them on the mountain the chance is even bigger that the AI will try to reach the city.

Btw, I'd like to know how to get an image on the left border.

__________________
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Last edited by Nemesis on 12-09-2002 at 18:54

	12-09-2002 19:34									#17
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Try this: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=58720

Theseus,

Thread is good, content does not make sense.

One of the key ideas is maximize settler production, i.e., settler factories. The stated goal is to pump out settlers when city is size 3 every 2-3 turns.

How can this be possible under depositism?

Settler costs: 30 shields and 2 pop.

Size 3 city with 2 shields/citizen== 6/turn.

5 turns between settler production.

What am I missing?

-- PF

	12-09-2002 20:34									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

PF - I think the "stated goal" is pretty damn ambitious. In order to get that type of settler pump, you would probably need a wheat on floodplain and several good production tiles. The city would need to bigger than size 3... more like 6. With all that surplus food, plus a granary, it would bounce back to 6 very fast. With 4-6 citizens working the land, you may have enough production to build settlers every 3-4 turns. Keep in mind that you get a shield from the city tile (so a size 1 working a 2-shield tile would produce 3 shields).

Given a good starting spot (this means at least 1 food bonus tile, like cows), I find that my capitol can put out settler/spearman/settler/spearman, with maybe an occasional warrior thrown in, once I get it going (w/o a granary). Like I said, though, that requires some bonus food. I'm picky - I make no claim that I'm a purist.

I often find that the 10 shield bonus for chopping trees is valueable early on if you have industrious workers. It takes 5 turns for them, IIRC. 5 worker turns for 10 shields... well, it depends, but it really can help.

The other key to good expansion is a decent road network. I have been concentrating on this a little bit more, because I had a natural tendency to want to develop 3-4 tiles per city prior to moving on, which takes too long. Now I get 3 tiles set for my capitol and move on. If non-industrious, I will often punch out a worker before building any settlers, to speed terrain development. I also do my best to buy AI workers to replenish population in my cities (using them may get you into a war, b/c they are technically "slaves").

I think the all-out REX strategy is best suited for large and huge maps. On normal maps, I really don't think you have time to build granaries. Sometimes, but not often.

-Arrian

	12-09-2002 20:44									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Since I always play as Rome, I don't know to dismantle it... but I do know how to cripple the Persians.


Generaly, unless Persia is right next to you, you won't be able to destroy them. Cripple them. Rome's UU can handle Immortals (check out the Unit Calculator, a legionary being attacked by an immortal will win about 60% of the time (IIRC), and that's unforted on open land).

I agree with those above that say cripple them. Pilage roads and taking out cities near iron will work.

	12-09-2002 20:51									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I think the all-out REX strategy is best suited for large and huge maps. On normal maps, I really don't think you have time to build granaries. Sometimes, but not often. -Arrian

Agreed, I stopped building granaries in early game as did not have time. I don't play huge maps, but do play with 5-6 civs on std map but with increased initial placement between civs. Thus game play is about the same as a larger map. The archer rush becomes horse/knight rush. Granaries in a few cities might be important. Yes I take advantage of all lumbering I can, especially since AI often protects forests for my loggers. Guess like many they don't know trees are a renewable resource and grow, duh.

Reviewing the strategy, it looks like I have not been consistent in setting aside one city to settler factories. I used to rush to Republic, and then to Monarchy-Republic. Now I am staying in depositism longer because of the 6 turn penalty of govt switching for non-religious civs.

Just irritated with how fast the AI plants cities and was looking at REX as method to get closer. It seems like if I am too many cities behind, I can't get production up enough to get the available border towns when then are size 2-3.

Also agree I have refocused workers. It used to be I would improve 5-6 tiles in each city before moving on. Now I improve 3-4 tiles, and focus on building up other towns and developing roads. Later I go back and fix the improvements. Actually do this twice. Once to optimize for depositism, and later to optimize for RR'ed Republic.

The other major change in game play is placement of cities in initial empire. Now I put them 3..4 tiles apart instead of 4..5. I reserve 4..5 for conquered lands. I found I need the 3..4 for unit construction early on, and since it takes so long to get the full benefits of 4..5 placement, the extra units are more important then full production.

--PF