12-09-2002 09:37									#31
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Turkey did not use non-conventional weapons to the best of my knowledge,

Actually, Turkey has used poison gas. On Kurds, in fact (albeit 50 or so years before Saddam did).

quote: Turkey is more or less a civilised country

If being a civilized country means wiping out tens of thousands of Kurds and sending a couple million into refugee camps, I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

quote: and is not expansionist.

Well, Turkey has been eyeing Northern Iraq recently. Then, there's that whole Cyprus business.

	12-09-2002 09:42									#32
	Inflate your Upload Space

Cyprus intervention was neccesary to prevent Greeks from massacaring the Turkish-cypriot population. Turkish actions in Kurdish lands have been part of an ongoing massive civil war there in which many Turks have been killed by Kurdish terrorists.

	12-09-2002 09:49									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov So that there would be 1 place in the world where this ethnicity will have self determination and self-rule and will live as a majority? Or are you also against a Palestine for palestinians, a Basque state for Basques and so on?

I would be slightly troubled if the Basques cleared out the entire Pyrenees area and made it their country. It was all their land several thousand years ago, after all.

	12-09-2002 09:59									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Cyprus intervention was neccesary to prevent Greeks from massacaring the Turkish-cypriot population.

So the the Turks could massacre/rape/pillage the Greek Cypatriot population instead.

quote: Turkish actions in Kurdish lands have been part of an ongoing massive civil war there in which many Turks have been killed by Kurdish terrorists.

Riiight, the ethnic cleansing of Kurds is justified by the relatively small amount of Kurdish terror against Turks.

	12-09-2002 10:46									#35
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Actually, I hope the US gets its head handed to it, to teach us a lesson about foreign intervention and aggression.

quote: Won't happen, of course, because the US military is the most powerful military force the world has ever seen, but one can hope.

	12-09-2002 12:10									#36
	Suffering from ads?

Hey Serb, I thought we were allies once again. I hope Russia doesn't begin another cold war.

I saw an interesting battle analysis on Fox given by a retired general. He said the campaign would proceed in stages, with the first stage being an air assault to take out Iraqi air defensees and to destroy scuds. Next troops would size and hold Iraqi oil fields to prevent Saddam from pulling another Kuwait. Next, US airpower would impose a "no move" zone over Iraqi.

- At that point, the analyst was interupted.

However, it seemed clear that we could conduct the initial stages of the campaign with only 50,000 troops.

	12-09-2002 12:34									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Ned Hey Serb, I thought we were allies once again.

So what? If you are allied with somebody, it doesn't mean that your ally should agree with all your decisions and should please you everytime.

quote: I hope Russia doesn't begin another cold war.

We never started cold wars, we prefer hot wars.

	13-09-2002 02:53									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: About 600 officers under the command of Gen. Tommy R. Franks, about a quarter of his staff, will move to Qatar in November, military officials said. The purpose is to test the ability to deploy a headquarters rapidly in a crisis and to carry out a war game, the officials said.

General Tommy Franks!?
IIRC, isn't that the guy who was incharge of the special anti General Aided actions in Somalia, as told by the book and movie Black Hawk Down? Or is that a different guy? Interesting if its the same man, i hope it is, cause it wouldnt be a bad choice at all. Considering he got a good taste of hard core urban combat in the Battle of Mogadishu, and has been studying it practically ever since.

Kman

	13-09-2002 03:05									#39
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I believe the commander of the Somali actions (debacle, call it what you will) resigned right after Adid died.

	13-09-2002 08:14									#40
	Got spare money?

Anyone know if Tommy Franks bears any relation to General Fred Franks (the guy who commanded, IIRC, VIIth Corps in the Persian Gulf)?

	13-09-2002 09:33									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

*digs out and dusts off old copy of Black Hawk Down*
hmm. i was kinda off; it was General William F. Garrison who commanded the speacial operations stuff in Somalia, and he did retire shortly after.

Kman

	13-09-2002 11:04									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Serb U.S. IS BAD GUYS etc.

Perhaps your homeland would prefer another curb stomping in response to such retarded use of emoticons?



YARGH HARGH HAR ME LOVE SERBIA

	13-09-2002 13:37									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

WTF?
What a cheap fake. Where did you get it? I never said such words in THIS thread.

And btw, my homeland never experienced curb stomping caused by you and more likely never will, because you don't have balls to attack Siberia. And if you will ever have balls to attack us... Malo blyadi nikomu ne pokazhetsa dazhe Kanadskim blyadiam.

	14-09-2002 12:48									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Perhaps I'll let your nation curb stomp yourself with its poor living standards.

Your people suck and are failures. Have a good day

	14-09-2002 13:11									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

FY too.

	14-09-2002 13:30									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

BOOOO!!

	14-09-2002 13:31									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

In the perfect world, we all would live in Serbia.

	14-09-2002 14:38									#48
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Asher In the perfect world, we all would live in Serbia.

Preciselly!

And as for Turkey and Israel being peaceful non-expasionist, you make me laugh my head off. People who say that are lousy hypocrites.

And how dare you incriminate the Iraqi people? You tend to take the concept of collective guilt too seriously. The people of Iraq have suffered enough - every day 167 Iraqi childre die due to American humanitarianism (DU shells etc.), poor health, no food, mall-treated water. That is equal to the number of people who lost their lives on 9/11, each month, repeated for years and years of agression. I am not saying that Saddam is noble but why should the people suffer?

And how commes that Pakistan has nukes and US isn't getting jumpy about it? And not to mention the fact that there is no evidence of Saddam's nuclear arsenal. Plus, who will you replace him with? You'll just put another dictator who will bow to your ill interests (hint: oil oil oil.

In Afganistan, US woved to replace the Taliban with a democratic regime but they've allied themselves with Northern Alliance warlords and Mujahedins, who couldn't care less about democracy or modern life. And you still see Afgan women forced to wear veils, and illegal drugs trade is still operational.

	14-09-2002 14:39									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If you got rid of Saddam then the people wouldn't suffer anymore

	14-09-2002 15:46									#50
	Tired of ads?

Of course, they will be absolutely happy selling cheap oil to USA and cheer new, pro-American dictator.

	14-09-2002 15:53									#51
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

They wouldn't be gassed, murdered and won't starve.

	14-09-2002 16:00									#52
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Of course, they will be bombed by US planes, murdered by US soldiers, died because of cancer caused by US shells with depleted uranium, died because of hunger and thirst when US planes will destroy Iraq irrigation systems, like they done during last war. Nice big difference

	14-09-2002 21:22									#53
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: The people of Iraq have suffered enough - every day 167 Iraqi childre die due to American humanitarianism (DU shells etc.), poor health, no food, mall-treated water.

And the US is responsible for the crapy living conditions in Iraq how? Sanctions you say?
you are short sighted...
If Saddam cut back his spending on his military and weapons of mass destruction programs, and maybe just alittle on his exuberant "presidential palaces", etc, etc, and if he focused more on the welfare of his people, instead of on himself like a decent leader would, then maybe, JUST MAYBE, people could live healthy lives in Iraq. But instead of improving the infrastructure and welfare of his nation, he rather improve himself. DONT EVEN DARE blame Iraq's humanitarian problems on the US. The sanctions would be nonexistant in the first place if he would cooperate. And the only reason why he is obligated to cooperate in the first place is because of the consequences of his own dumb ass decisions in the past.

Kman

	14-09-2002 21:32									#54
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: And how commes that Pakistan has nukes and US isn't getting jumpy about it? And not to mention the fact that there is no evidence of Saddam's nuclear arsenal. Plus, who will you replace him with? You'll just put another dictator who will bow to your ill interests (hint: oil oil oil.

No evidence?! oh my god...
And where do we get our news, Al Jazeera?
Have you ever once listened to the former UN weapons inspectors. Have you ever once heard the stories of those who have defected from Iraq?

We wont replace anyone, the UN will probably work to instill a new democracy. It has not been decided exactly what will happen, yet, but itl most certainly be included in the UN resolution. The US would never even hope to get the worlds support for a preempred invasion without an excellent plan for rebuilding. Why would the US want to put a dictator in power??? Our interests in the middle east would by far be best served by a moderate arab democracy. Oil is not an issue for the United States because we only get 8% of ours from that region and we are taking drastic steps to reduce that even lower, so would people stop saying that this is an alterior motive. During the Gulf War, yes, now it is not. As it is Iraq willingly trades all the oil we need from them because that is their major source of revenue. ME oil is an extreme issue for Europe and Japan, because they get upwards of 60 and 70% respectively from the ME. hmmm....

Kman

	14-09-2002 21:40									#55
	Put an end to popups!

quote: And you still see Afgan women forced to wear veils, and illegal drugs trade is still operational.

The illegal drug trade has been in full swing in the US for decades now, and we spend BILLIONS trying to stop it in our own backyard. How in the hell can we hope to accomplish this feat half way across the world in the rugged and isolated mountains of Afghanistan in a matter of months with the limited funds that we spend to fight it???

The reason why Afghan women wear veils (they are not made to by the government, most are either willing cause they feel it is their culture or they are made to do it by their relatives or locals) is because it is in their culture. Even if the Afghan democracy wants to make their women wear them, who is the US or anyone else in the world to say they cant do this? They are their own nation now.

Kman

	14-09-2002 21:42									#56
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I vote October, only because Bush will give it that long for the U.N. to drop their cocks and grab their socks.
If he and Blair decide to go on without giving the U.N. time to straighten the bow in their hair, it may be in September.

	14-09-2002 21:48									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Zylka IT'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER VIETNAM

good lord. didn't we hear the same thing before Afghanistan too?

No it won't be, this is not some distant disconnected w3ar that the American people will not stand behind. Most Americans support pre-emptive action in Iraq and there will be few, if any protests, the likes of which brought us to our knees in Vietnam.

I am pretty sure that for the rest of our existance as a nation whenever we go to war it will be feared that 'ANOTHER VIETNAM' will be the outcome.

	14-09-2002 21:53									#58
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Serb Of course, they will be bombed by US planes, murdered by US soldiers, died because of cancer caused by US shells with depleted uranium, died because of hunger and thirst when US planes will destroy Iraq irrigation systems, like they done during last war. Nice big difference

hmmm, lets try to blow things out of proportion just a little more, ok?

United States Soldiers do not rape, pillage, plunder, or murder. There will be civilian deaths in the war, it would be ignorant to think not, but after the war they will no longer happen constantly, they will all but stop. as Cybergod has so graciously pointed out, under Saddam's regime a WTC amount of civilians die regularly under Saddams regime, and thats just from poor standards of living. Lets not mention the secret murders and firig squads, etc, etc. Im not saying post war Iraq is going to be heaven, but itll be a vast improvement. Think about it this way:
You are in a room with 50 people and everyday a person is taken out and killed. Would you rather continue the trend or would you, if you could, send 3 people out one day to die, but stop the killing?

As for depleted Uranium rounds, after every incident any of them are used a clean up crew is flown in to extract as much of the shells as possible. Honestly, this is more for the purpose that others may not get their hands on the depleted uranium for dirty bombs or whatever and so that the materials collected can be remanufactured into more shells, and not so much for humanitarian purposes. Regaurdless, anyone who has taken a high school chemistry class knows that the radioactivity of Uranium can only cause cancer to those through 'large' doses and long periods of exposure, unless one is genetically predisposed to cancer, which 1 in 3 humans are anyway. Anyway, anylong term deaths related to the limited use of dpleted uranium rounds is minimal.

Kman

EDIT: Lets not forget that Saddam, being the brave man that he is, has clustered his military installation in cities and other densly populated areas so he can use the civilians as human shields. You can blame the US for the enevitable civilian casualties, but IMHO, Saddam is ultimately the bastard responsible.

	14-09-2002 21:57									#59
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Kramerman United States Soldiers do not rape, pillage, plunder, or murder.

We try to leave that to the Russian army.

	14-09-2002 21:59									#60
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by SKILORD good lord. didn't we hear the same thing before Afghanistan too? No it won't be, this is not some distant disconnected w3ar that the American people will not stand behind. Most Americans support pre-emptive action in Iraq and there will be few, if any protests, the likes of which brought us to our knees in Vietnam. I am pretty sure that for the rest of our existance as a nation whenever we go to war it will be feared that 'ANOTHER VIETNAM' will be the outcome.

Tell me about it. Everyone said the first Gulf War 'was going to be another Vietnam'. and look how that turned out.... we killed more of our own people than Saddam did. Now I am not in anyway saying this invasion is gonna be anywhere nearly as successful as the first, Since Saddam is fighting for his survival itll probably be much worse, but you get the point.