13-09-2002 06:01									#91
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Vel,

Your thinking is flawed. You are totally ignoring the fact that Hussein has flaunted the terms of the ceasefire for over ten years and commited atrocity after atrocity against his own people. Children starve while he pursues the ultimate weapon. If we do not strike against this tyrant we are moral cowards.

Respectfully,

jt

	13-09-2002 06:03									#92
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before you do anything though let me know 'cause i have to go buy my pop corn and see you kill eachother. (it's not the same without pop corn)

	13-09-2002 06:05									#93
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I am against the first Gulf War...but once it happened, it was stupid to not have finished the job. And it's not worth the price to get that opportunity again.

	13-09-2002 06:10									#94
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I thought about that aspect of it, JT, and compelling arguments could be made that our own sanctions in place against Iraq are the root cause of the starvation. They're surely not doing much of anything to the man who has no less than fourteen different palatial homes scattered about his dusty nation.

Indirectly then, WE are the cause of the starvation. True, causally, Sadam himself is, as the sanctions are only in place because of his refusal to cooperate, but it's easy enough for his spin doctors to play it the other way.

That he flagrantly violates the terms of the peace is cause enough for the sanctions, surely, but full-scale war? I dunno. Certainly not without the support of the key players in the coalition last time we went rounds with him.

As to attrocities against his own people.....while I sympathize with them and their plight of having to live under the rule of one of the region's less-savory characters, his internal affairs and treatment of his people is certainly barbaric by our (western) standards, but again, unless there is a formal call for outside assistance--as per when Kuwait requested our aid--then I submit that we should not raise a hand against him.

Now....if a well-organized subversive group inside the nation put out an ABP for assistance, then by all means, we should rise to the occassion and answer their plea for help, but that changes the fundamental equation considerably. At that point, we're not lashing out at someone who might, at some point down the road, do something we don't like, we're answering a genuine call for help.

Puts an entirely different face on it in my book.

-=Vel=-
(of course, all this should be taken with a grain of salt....I'm one of those kooks who STILL, to this day has serious questions about the events of 9/11, not the least of which are "where's the torn up lawn from the plane that, according to the official story, hit the lawn and plowed into the building", and "why was there presidential pressure to quell any and all investigations into events surrounding that day")

	13-09-2002 06:12									#95
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Vel, Your thinking is flawed. You are totally ignoring the fact that Hussein has flaunted the terms of the ceasefire for over ten years and commited atrocity after atrocity against his own people. If we do not strike against this tyrant we are moral cowards. Respectfully, jt

Jesus. Turkey does the exact same things and it is your ally and you support it in doing it. Such hypocricy makes 9/11 so make sense.

	13-09-2002 06:19									#96
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 where were you when Cyprus was being invaded? my reaction at a fast cross reading to Bug's post, and with all due respect, is go do what you like, you'll find it in front of you in the future.

there is no oil in cyprus

and ned, i think the offical us reaction to iraqi gas attacks was a kind of '**** happens' shrug of the shoulders.

	13-09-2002 06:19									#97
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Answer me little bastard jimmytrick. You paragon of morality. How long must the world grind its teeth at your sponsored foreign state murders and your sponsored coup d'etat murders?

Take your time thinking. I will check this thread later.

	13-09-2002 06:22									#98
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Cockney, there is no oil in Cyprus...

Thank you for exposing this whole charade. Enjoy your IRA.

	13-09-2002 06:22									#99
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paiktis22.....point out to me on the map just ONE NATION that has a spotless record. One single nation that's never done anything the least bit inconsistent and never gotten its hands dirty. Your own, perhaps?

Take your time answering, and I'll check this thread later....

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 06:24									#100
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bad day paiktis?

	13-09-2002 06:25									#101
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The last time I checked, the objective of the 1990-91 Gulf War was the liberation of Kuwait, not the invasion of Iraq and subsequent occupation of Baghdad and removal of Saddam Hussein.

Perhaps it's easy to "forget" that little aspect now, nearly 12 years later, or dismiss it anyway, but I really don't think our Arab allies at the time would've been pleased had we gone beyond the objectives. In fact, it's my understanding that it was behind-the-scenes pressure, in addition to the limits of the UN mandate, that led to coalition forces coming to a halt in southern Iraq.

Not that "Stormin" Norman Schwartzkopf was pleased. From what I've heard, he told Bush Sr., et al., that he was only 30 to 40 minutes away from Baghdad. I believe he also stated something about cutting the head off the snake ... and that's something that didn't happen in 1991.

We stopped short, and ever since a number of folks have been conveniently forgetting or dismissing *why* we stopped short.

Gatekeeper

	13-09-2002 06:27									#102
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Vel,

You surely don't subscribe to the theory that 4,000 Jews were told not to report to work on 9/11?

France is floating a trial ballon at the UN that Iraq be given a three week ultimatim. Still in debate is whether action will be sanctioned now or would require a further resolution after the expiration of the three week period.

I will agree with you on one point Vel. The time for sanctions is at an end. We have allowed too many innocents to die in Iraq already.

jt

	13-09-2002 06:27									#103
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Good point, Gatekeeper. It's not something I had forgotten, I'm just saying that, while we had assets on the ground in Iraq, it would have been very easy to do it and ask forgiveness later. True, there would have been backlash, but not anything on the order of magnitude we'll see if we go it alone this time.

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 06:28									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper The last time I checked, the objective of the 1990-91 Gulf War was the liberation of Kuwait, not the invasion of Iraq and subsequent occupation of Baghdad and removal of Saddam Hussein. Perhaps it's easy to "forget" that little aspect now, nearly 12 years later, or dismiss it anyway, but I really don't think our Arab allies at the time would've been pleased had we gone beyond the objectives. In fact, it's my understanding that it was behind-the-scenes pressure, in addition to the limits of the UN mandate, that led to coalition forces coming to a halt in southern Iraq. Not that "Stormin" Norman Schwartzkopf was pleased. From what I've heard, he told Bush Sr., et al., that he was only 30 to 40 minutes away from Baghdad. I believe he also stated something about cutting the head off the snake ... and that's something that didn't happen in 1991. We stopped short, and ever since a number of folks have been conveniently forgetting or dismissing *why* we stopped short. Gatekeeper

I know why it happened...but it makes me angry.

If the West was going to go in and slaughter a couple of hundred thousand Iraqis, we should also have given the ones we didn't kill something to pay them back...like getting rid of Saddam.

	13-09-2002 06:29									#105
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Vel, show me ONE NATION that has done such a dirty record as you involving third countries. If you say USSR, then ok you're the same. Take pleasure in that.

Cockney, does that change anything?

	13-09-2002 06:30									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper The last time I checked, the objective of the 1990-91 Gulf War was the liberation of Kuwait, not the invasion of Iraq and subsequent occupation of Baghdad and removal of Saddam Hussein. Perhaps it's easy to "forget" that little aspect now, nearly 12 years later, or dismiss it anyway, but I really don't think our Arab allies at the time would've been pleased had we gone beyond the objectives. In fact, it's my understanding that it was behind-the-scenes pressure, in addition to the limits of the UN mandate, that led to coalition forces coming to a halt in southern Iraq. Not that "Stormin" Norman Schwartzkopf was pleased. From what I've heard, he told Bush Sr., et al., that he was only 30 to 40 minutes away from Baghdad. I believe he also stated something about cutting the head off the snake ... and that's something that didn't happen in 1991. We stopped short, and ever since a number of folks have been conveniently forgetting or dismissing *why* we stopped short. Gatekeeper

I don't know why but I can report that almost 100% of the people I know here in America was disgusted with it. I think in the end that is why George Bush lost his reelection bid.

It was a mistake.

	13-09-2002 06:30									#107
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Don't worry JT....I'm not *that* much of a kook. I simply have questions about the events of that day. There are a number of inconsistencies that should be investigated. *would be* investigated, if not for Presidential pressure to squash the investigations almost before they began.

My opinion there is that if there's nothing to hide, then there's no good reason not to allow the investigations. Quashing them only serves as a nod of silent confirmation among those who closely watch our government that something does indeed, stinketh.

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 06:32									#108
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quote: Vel, show me ONE NATION that has done such a dirty record as you involving third countries

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions

	13-09-2002 06:33									#109
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The ease by which you bypass such questions BTW gives leverage to people who claim that only strikes at the heart of your countries (inocents not inocents who the **** cares, obviously you don't) will make you listen.

just like the palestinians did to get support (and got it).


the road to heaven is paved with bad ones then :shrugs:

	13-09-2002 06:33									#110
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No problem, Pat....let's see....where to start:

Hitler's Germany

Stalinist Russia

Some nut-ball in Cambodea

Colonial Spain

Great Britain, during her heyday

Shall I continue? Those were just the easy ones off the top of my head.

The US throws its weight around, that's more than true. Too much for my tastes, and too much for the tastes of a lot of people, but we're rank ammetures compared to many, including ALL of the former colonial powers.

I'd say we're in good company then.

-=Vel=-
(kinna hard to find that country with the spotless record, eh?)

	13-09-2002 06:34									#111
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Paiktis, the fact that we failed in Cyprus doesn't mean we should fail again in the future. Nations can redeem themselves.

	13-09-2002 06:37									#112
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vel, thank you for comparing the US to Nazi Germany. That says a lot.


Felch X, please. you didnt fail. you didnt care. if you wanted to redeem yourselves you wouldnt attack iraq but force turkey to respect human rights and get out of cyprus and then go on from there

	13-09-2002 06:38									#113
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I didn't compare the US to Nazi Germany. You asked me for examples of countries with worse records. I supplied a partial list. Simple as that.

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 06:38									#114
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We're too busy laughing at the Greeks.

You know we let you in NATO as a joke, right?

	13-09-2002 06:39									#115
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like felch said, the fact that we didn't do anything in cyprus doesn't mean we wouldn't have been justified in doing something or make the gulf war any less justified.

	13-09-2002 06:40									#116
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We failed the moral test. I admited that. But we have no obligation to go along with every little Greek pet project like "liberating captured territory," or "encouraging our allies to respect human rights." For Christ's sake, we have an empire to manage, and poor people to oppress.

If you want to take back Cyprus, feel free. I'm sure we'll sell you all the guns and planes you need.

	13-09-2002 06:42									#117
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frogger, you're canadian FFS.

vel, same difference

cockney, it shows that you have double standards to say the least. at the same time you support a regime like turkey and at the same time you protect the innocents of iraq? please.

	13-09-2002 06:43									#118
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FFS?

	13-09-2002 06:44									#119
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Sometimes, Pat, you make NO sense at all!

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 06:44									#120
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where did you get the idea that i 'support' the turkish government's actions from?