26-09-2002 15:34									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

hm, Dale just write your news item yourself and mail it to Locutus or MarkG and it'll be up in no time, I'm sure

	29-09-2002 16:56									#32
	Colonies Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This code could be very useful if Colonies cant be made to work exactly as in civ3 ie Get worker to go and build it like a settler builds a city.


Instead you could make the colonie a TI and use say the worker unit from civ3 (when its converted) and call him a colonist, he could then go out to a good and would allow u to lay the colonie where he is. He would then dissapear

	08-10-2002 12:56									#33
	PTW Chat Remove this text

Since probably most of you guys don't bother to read that (I for one like to stay all knowing...) here's what being persistent can get those programmers saying:
from the PTW-Chat Log on Civfanatics:

[17:51] <@Chieftess> Damnit_this_is_PROPAGANDA: Soren or Mike, what do you think of "Public Works" ala CTP2? DO you think
it's better in some ways than the current worker-system?...
[17:51] <+Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS> Prop: never playerd CTP2
[17:52] <+Soren_Johnson_Firaxis> well, it is definitely different... i can see the advantages (of PW), but in my mind, workers are one of the few core civ concepts, so we kept them
...
Mike has no clue... are we suprised? No, not after reading IW's signature so often.
Now I would have expected them to tell of the advantages of the worker system because there certainly are some, like having to protect the workers, stealing them from an enemy, use them to transfer pop, not being able to build at any place but only where you're actually present with a unit (I'd call that more realistic)
...
[17:58] <@Chieftess> Damnit_this_is_PROPAGANDA: Well, to explain it, in CTP2, you set a certain ammount of money into public Works, which is basically like the worker-system, except there are no workers on screen. Depending on much you spend, it'll take either faster or slower to produce that improvement(i.e. farms, roads, mines).
[17:59] <+Soren_Johnson_Firaxis> prop: our general design philosophy is to try not to abstract too much information to not scare away new users. we prefer to have units DO things. make the game more concrete
[17:59] <+Soren_Johnson_Firaxis> but i do understand the management benefits
[18:00] <+Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS> But then there are the players who like to micromanage every little aspect of the game...
...
so PW is too abstract and it's not micromanagement? Ok, hear what they say after Prop keeps asking:
...
[18:04] <@Chieftess> Damnit_this_is_PROPAGANDA: You still micromanage. In order to get the proper use of out of improvements, you need to place them in a beneficial place. It's really no different to the worker-system. Just that you can set a tax on PW, so that you can get the faster and most beneficial output out of it.
[18:05] <+FXS_Speed_Bump> Prop: You do it your way...I'll do it mine I prefer to make my own decisions
...
I mean, why don't they even argue their case??
...
[18:06] <+Soren_Johnson_Firaxis> prop: it is similar and probably wrongly maligned... i'm saying that it's a difference between being concrete and being abstract for a new user. We chose the former
...
So basically - Soren would probably have liked to implement it but it's probably a copyright issue, or what?
Because, honestly otherwise with that concrete-abstract-arguement they are saying that CivIII is a game for _______. And this from the programmers.

edit: the asking guy's name didn't display in the post - now it does...

Last edited by mapfi on 08-10-2002 at 14:31

	08-10-2002 14:03									#34
	Suffering from ads?

CTP2 : 1 - Civ3 : 0
When will they ever learn? Anything they can do, we can do better!

	08-10-2002 14:18									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Either he doenst know what he says or is hiding what he thinks.

I take the last.

	08-10-2002 16:06									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Devil of Truth CTP2 : 1 - Civ3 : 0 When will they ever learn? Anything they can do, we can do better!

Wrong...this is how the score looks like:

CTP2 : 0 - Civ3 : 1 (if we only talks about the PW vs workers)

The reason (that the scores looks like that): Civ3 didn't implent the pw system (Thank God for that)

But what Firaxis says, is wrong...he says they kept the workers (settlers) because people like micromanagement...sure, micromanagement is good, but with the pw system, micromanagement just goes WAY too deep (= too much micromanagement)

	08-10-2002 16:20									#37
	Support Apolyton

quote: pw system, micromanagement just goes WAY too deep (= too much micromanagement)

Sorry but that makes no sense to me. In Civ3 you have to send up to 200 workers (depending on empire size and game stage etc) round you empire in order to build farms / roads etc where as in Ctp 2 you just have to click where you want roads etc to be providing you have enough pw.

How can Public Works be MORE micromanagement?

	08-10-2002 16:25									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In Civ3, they have the automation tool (one click, and done), but even without the automation, it's easier, since you don't have to keep an eye on you pw each turn, and then when having enough money to buy a road, you click tons of times...just to be able to make ONE road...

	08-10-2002 16:27									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

So instead of keeping an eye on PW, you keep an eye on all 40 workers. Simple.

	08-10-2002 16:30									#40
	Inflate your Upload Space

Not another one, please!!

I was only trying to get this thread back up with some valuable info.
And I thought it was interesting the programmers didn't defend their choice but found lame excuses, as ADG noticed too. As I pointed out there certainly are valuable reasons for the worker system and I think CivIII system is a big improvement over the CivII one. So why aren't they convinced of their own work?

Soren at least tries to make some sense... but Mike - I personally think it's a shame developping such a game without knowing the big games of the genre. Of course you often better start from scratch when designing - but when polishing things off it's pure stupidity not to look at other solutions and tweaks that others have come up with. - and as for Speed_Bump, whoever from Firaxis that is, his comment is a disgrace to the team.

	08-10-2002 16:34									#41
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by mapfi Not another one, please!!

ok, I'll try

	08-10-2002 16:36									#42
	Put an end to popups!

EDIT: Post removed to get back on topic .

	08-10-2002 16:41									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks, because we all know the arguements and we know we have different opinions so we should just let it rest besides maybe making fun of each other from time to time

	08-10-2002 17:13									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You started it mapfi

Actually i think basically Mike "ive never played it" Breitkreutz from Firaxis has his head in the sand and Soren was told to stick to the gameplan from the beginning although we can tell he likes PW, he just wants to get paid.

CtP2 1 - 1 Civ3 Soren's sat on the center spot and Mike hasnt seen the ball yet.

*Back on topic*
Who regularly uses this mod then?

	08-10-2002 18:06									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

don't blame me. I didn't start a comparison discussion, just a harmless post...

So IW, when are you going to adjust your signature - Mike "never playerd CTP2" Breitkreutz ?

And I wonder - do you think it's been Sid's decision to have those workers as Maq suspects? Or was it only a copyright's issue? If so, if Vel acquires the source code he could let them use it in CivIV then

It's like so not going to happen that I use this mod - then I'd rather play CivIII again(*shudder*). I wonder though too, if anyone has tried it seriously - ADG?

	08-10-2002 18:08									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

*shrug* goes without saying, surely?

	08-10-2002 18:13									#47
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by mapfi It's like so not going to happen that I use this mod - then I'd rather play CivIII again(*shudder*). I wonder though too, if anyone has tried it seriously - ADG?

I haven't had the time yet, been to busy with school, but next week, it's of school, so I think (hope) I'll have some time there then...

	08-10-2002 18:15									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: *shrug* goes without saying, surely?

Indeed it does go without saying, in fact id be suprised if Mike Berkawitz has played Civ2.

I havent tried this mod yet, i was just looking for someone to tell me theres something here for the PW converted.

	09-10-2002 04:48									#49
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I've tried it... It's a nice combo of moving the worker while having to save PW... So it's still better than the Civ3 sytem

	09-10-2002 16:42									#50
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You mean you still have to save pw, to be able to use the worker?

	09-10-2002 17:53									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I had a look at Dale's code and yes you have to, but it's easily diabled by giving you lots of PW free. Just include the following lines in the CW_civworker.slc:

code:

HandleEvent(BeginTurn) 'FreePW' pre {
  if (IsHumanPlayer(player[0])) {
     SetPW(player[0], 50000);
  }
}

	09-10-2002 18:55									#52
	Increase Your PM Length

Ok, thx

	26-11-2002 15:39									#53
	Support Apolyton

I would be more interested in a SMAC Terraformer (no pop point lost, no city building) than a Civ3 Worker, and not as a replacement to PW but as a supplement. Think of it this way: PW is primarily the population living in the tiles improving their own lands, while a Terraformer is the application of a dedicated workforce to government mandated tasks.

I would use them to prepare city sites outside the borders, build roads and rails into enemy territory, or even to help weak allies. To make it work there has to be a way to place improvements anywhere on the map but only with the Former, then it has to be "free," all without messing up the rest of the PW system.

We can already build a fortress anywhere near a friendly unit. Expand that to allow all other improvements in the same tile as the Former. When you start building an improvement you can have the code add the required number of PW if there isn't a way to conditionally eliminate the cost.

	27-11-2002 04:39									#54
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I like Straybows idea of using a settler type unit(within the context of this mod ) in a freindly nations territory to help with tile improvements.
Of course using PW in the same way would also be cool and something to do late game with your pile of PW?

	27-11-2002 06:01									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yea i like Straybows idea too, very good. The Civ3 worker unit could be converted and used too, but i doubt its various animation would be able to get to work (eg Mining when mining, farming when farming you get the idea)

-James

	24-12-2002 01:12									#56
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hello? Any of you modmasters tried a hand at this yet? It doesn't look like there've been many takers for the full Civ3 Worker mod… this would be better anyway.