13-09-2002 19:06									#1
	I gather the AI was cheating on this one. Get a bigger avatar today!

---I like to play on land-heavy continents, on Monarch level. My palace was near the center of this continent, with my civilization grown around it relatively circular. To the East was the Indian civilization, with it's capitol. To the West were the Japanese, which the Indians were destroying. The Indians were crossing my entire civilization to get to the Japanese, which I allowed because it opened new space for me to grow. As the Indians took cities, it reduced each city's cultural radius to 1, making pockets of room all around. A three square-wide pocket opened up, with an Iron resource in it.

---I was making Infantry at the time, and had already had ALL THREE of my Iron resources run dry on me ! In NEEDED that iron ! I plop a city right next to it and another city on the far side of the recently-captured Japanese town, so that my influence would take over the town and I could disband it.

---Both cities had grown their influence out-- one 2 spaces, the other 3, while the enemy occupied city remained at 1 square radius. Then, out of the blue, one of my cities was flipped-- the one with the iron.

!!!

	13-09-2002 19:12									#2
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What exactly did you need iron for? By that point you sohuld be worrying about oil and rubber.

	13-09-2002 19:14									#3
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---Railroads, both for forward expansion into enemy territory and for railroad repair.

	13-09-2002 19:14									#4
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Iron is usually helpful when trying to build railroads.

	13-09-2002 19:21									#5
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I felt exactly the same when one of my city (size 6, culture raidus 3)flipped to a size 5 city with 1 culture radius. Not saying i was controlling half of the super continent i was playing on.

When the AI cheats, it is sooooooo obvious you want to beat the hell out of your computer

	13-09-2002 19:24									#6
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quote: Originally posted by metalhead Iron is usually helpful when trying to build railroads.

Well, I feel sheepish

	13-09-2002 20:03									#7
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Did they have a global cultural advantage (not a local one in the area)? If so, it's not surprising at all because I do it a lot to the AI.

	13-09-2002 20:15									#8
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Bah.

Ever heard of bad luck?

	13-09-2002 20:37									#9
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---I own about 80% more land than they do, and my capitol was about 5 spaces closer then their's. Many Civs have 2 or more sources of iron, yet won't trade with me, in spite of my nearly spotless reputation.

---I bulked up my army, so they're a little more reasonable with me, but most have banded together into Mutual Protection pacts. Due to my placement, I can force almost all combat in the world to two medium borders. I'm building walls of Fortresses in anticipation.

	13-09-2002 20:44									#10
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The AI doesn't cheat like that. That's a LOT of bad luck, though, I'll grant you. I rarely have more than 3 resources (of any type) deplete on me per game. In my current one (roughly 1500AD), I've had 1 iron, 1 coal, and 1 oil deplete thus far.

Are you playing a mod? The only reason I ask is that if the resource appearance/disappearance rates have been changed, it might explain what happened with your iron.

As to the flip... do you have a save or screenshot of the situation? What was the overall cultural ratio between them and you? It does sound like very bad luck.

-Arrian

	13-09-2002 22:30									#11
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How much cultural improvements did you put into the city? Was is connected to your capitol, or the other civ's capitol? The amount of cultural difference between the two civs is a factor as well as how much of your city's big 'x' was under the other civ's sphere of influence.

	13-09-2002 22:36									#12
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It is just a bad roll of the dice. I have seen flips that made no sense, but i can't see it as calculated act.

	13-09-2002 22:44									#13
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i dont know about you guys, but all of my recent games, with the latest patch, i noticed that whenever my iron depletes, it appears on the exact same spot! i've had iron deplete maybe 3 games, but everytime it came back to the same spot it was at previously. maybe its just luck, since i havent been playing civ much lately. i was thinking wtf is the point of resource depletion if its gonna appea at the same spot!

	13-09-2002 22:47									#14
	Re: I gather the AI was cheating on this one. Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Nosferum ---Both cities had grown their influence out-- one 2 spaces, the other 3, while the enemy occupied city remained at 1 square radius. Then, out of the blue, one of my cities was flipped-- the one with the iron.

How many foreign citizens did you have in that city? I usually rush slave worker and slave settler in every other turn to reduce the number of foreign citizens to 1 just to be sure that it won't flip. Some players may starve them to death, that also work too. I just refer creating workers and settler instead.

	13-09-2002 22:50									#15
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People who get frustrated easily by random occurences often cry "cheat" with no reason or evidence behind it. Cities flip, that's how the game works. To assume it is cheating is pathetic.

	13-09-2002 23:05									#16
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People who instantly go on a superiority trip when others make an off-handed remark about the computer cheating are obnoxious.

	13-09-2002 23:21									#17
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---My city was connected to all my other cities via a railroad. Their city was also connected to their capitol due to my roads. My city was purely of my own race, while their's was an Indian-occupied city of Japanese.

---I have no modifications to my game. I am willing to accept 3 depletions, considering I was able to secure a 4th. However, getting my city flipped when the situation was 100% contrary to the rules as they were explained by a Dev is either a cheat or a bug.

---Note: my first Iron depletion was immediately after building my first Swordsman which was the same turn as my initial offensive rush. The second was before I got railroads, but after Swordsmen, so it was no great loss. The third left me at about 70% railroaded territory. The fourth loss isn't a major problem now since I'm about 90% railroaded, but it will be a problem if I expand anymore at all.

**edit - spelling is your friend, and, cyclotron7, what is the value of your flame?**

	13-09-2002 23:36									#18
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Nosferum, do you have a save you could post? You know, there have been so many claims of the AI "cheating"... and nobody has ever - as far as I can remember - submitted any proof... That's why cyclotron7 commented in a rather dismissive way...

If I were you, I would attach a savegame to the very first post. The discussion could be more constructive then... actually, you can still do that. Show us, you may be the very first on Poly to catch the AI REALLY cheating...

	13-09-2002 23:44									#19
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---I guess it depends largely on how you define cheating. At least at the harder levels of difficulty you can see that both Civ II and Civ III (haven't played the original in too long to remember) the enemy AI grows it's civilization in your direction every time. It was most noticeable in Civ II where you could trade maps as soon as you met a Civ and see that their path of exploration went from their capitol strait to your's. =) Inv Civ III it's still obvious, but less so, and doesn't appear to be 100%.

---I'll post a save if you like. I just don't see an need for vitriol.

	13-09-2002 23:47									#20
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Have you considered the possibility that the Indians have Espionage and have planted a spy in your capitol? They could then spread propaganda in a weak city and cause it to flip.

	14-09-2002 00:09									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Nosferum ---I guess it depends largely on how you define cheating. At least at the harder levels of difficulty you can see that both Civ II and Civ III (haven't played the original in too long to remember) the enemy AI grows it's civilization in your direction every time. It was most noticeable in Civ II where you could trade maps as soon as you met a Civ and see that their path of exploration went from their capitol strait to your's. =) Inv Civ III it's still obvious, but less so, and doesn't appear to be 100%. ---I'll post a save if you like. I just don't see an need for vitriol.

OK, but now you are talking about something different. It has been confirmed that the AI "cheats" by knowing certain geography features, which may relate to the fact that you seem to find the AI often spread in your direction...

However, your first post was about disappearing resources and a flip that looked like cheating...

	14-09-2002 00:31									#22
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Untill the city has full control of all twenty-one of its tiles culture flipping is possible EVEN when you don't have any foreign citizens. Rare but possible. You needed to rush a temple and then a library. As quick as possible. Plus considering Ghandi's typical building patterns its possible that India had greater overall culture than you which is a major factor, more important than how close the capitol is.

Thats a lot of iron to deplete. Uranium is much worse at depletion. It depletes so often I sometimes only connect one of them by road at a time and might keep a worker or two right on one uranium tile ready to build a road as soon as the active one depletes.

The BEST way to keep your resources is to have a LOT of territory. That way you improve your odds of having the new resource show up in your territory. Allways when a tile depletes some other tile gets the resource. Sometimes even the same tile although I have only seen that once.

I once had my only source of oil cross from my side of the border to the Greek side of the border two tiles away. Well I had been looking for an excuse to wipe them out anyway. Neccessity is a great excuse.

	14-09-2002 01:02									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Nosferum ---I guess it depends largely on how you define cheating. At least at the harder levels of difficulty you can see that both Civ II and Civ III (haven't played the original in too long to remember) the enemy AI grows it's civilization in your direction every time. It was most noticeable in Civ II where you could trade maps as soon as you met a Civ and see that their path of exploration went from their capitol strait to your's. =) Inv Civ III it's still obvious, but less so, and doesn't appear to be 100%. ---I'll post a save if you like. I just don't see an need for vitriol.

Well, you know, you should be expanding in the direction of their borders too.

	14-09-2002 01:14									#24
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Aethelred the Ready, aye? =)

---While it is *possible* that Ghandi had a higher overall culture than I did, it seems unlikely. I'll check tonight, though. I believe he has 2 Great Wonders to my 3, but there's a lot more involved. I did speed-build a temple and library-- disbanded obsolete units in the city like a big trash can.

	14-09-2002 01:18									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Wormwood Well, you know, you should be expanding in the direction of their borders too.

---I try to, but only when I find them. The computer doesn't have to find me to know where I am. =) I generally aim my growth for luxuries and resources, and in a big circle. My concern for growing in their direction is probably my second concern.

	14-09-2002 01:48									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Nosferum Aethelred the Ready, aye? =)

Mere coincindence of names. The full name is Ethelred ban Hangyvezenyl AKA the Armourer . I created a character for a play by mail Diplomacy variant called Slobovia to go with one of my brother's characters that he took over from someone else. I wasn't thinking of Ethelred the Unready at the time. I have been using it for decades in games.

	14-09-2002 04:57									#27
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no ai cheat here - just super crappy luck. i've modded my game so that dissapearances of resources are about half as likely. just do not like it.

	14-09-2002 07:49									#28
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quote: You know, there have been so many claims of the AI "cheating"... and nobody has ever - as far as I can remember - submitted any proof... That's why cyclotron7 commented in a rather dismissive way...

Indeed, that could be why. Perhaps the next time you post you could consider that things that don't go your way may not be cheating. Starting a post with "I gather the AI was cheating" while not putting any kind of evidence forward is not an excellent way to prove your point.

Small cities on the borders of other nations, especially newly founded cities, are quite vulnerable to flipping. Good ways to deal with the situation include inducing WLTKD as soon as your city is the proper size, and moving your city farther back from the border (even if it cramps your city grid) as to reduce the amount of opponent tiles in your city radius.

	14-09-2002 11:44									#29
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Still waiting for the save game...