14-09-2002 13:15									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Nope, of course not. But I just couldnt let that fall on page two without an answer. And the fact is that terrorism never ressurected anyone. Moreover, Palestine, as a gouvernment (rather as the remaints of a governments) dont support terrorism since ages. Actually, if Israel gave back Palestine's occupied territory to Palestine and accept a discussion to make Jerusalme an independant city such as Vatican, the war would stop.

Ah well, it's time for that picture again.

	14-09-2002 14:04									#32
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I could say "The liberation of Palestine refers to the liberation of all land on both sides of the Green Line, ie. the destruction of Israel". But Eli's picture says it more concisely.

	14-09-2002 14:05									#33
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Which of those organisations are splitters

	14-09-2002 14:43									#34
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Not even a single Palestinian organization had officially declared that liberating entire "Palestine" is not their goal.

Arafat said it in English couple times, together with some of his ministers. But on the ground, even "official" organizations like the Fatah and the Tanzim are still dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

	14-09-2002 18:03									#35
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Well, I know that I won't be celebrating dancing in the streets like many Palestinians celebrated two days before Sep 13 th...

I see that an Arab writing in a major British newspaper claim that the first reactions by Arabs in the ME of Sep 11, were shock and a feeling that the whole incident was terrible. Yeah, right... I'm sure you want to believe that and/or Arab/Muslim regimes TELL you to believe... Why do the British accept this crap in their 'news'papers?

	14-09-2002 22:04									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Actually, if Israel gave back Palestine's occupied territory to Palestine and accept a discussion to make Jerusalme an independant city such as Vatican, the war would stop. But as many other countries, they wont because they would loss lands, and therefore financial interests.

The perfect solution, I agree.
But unfortunately only the left wing Israelis and the moderate Palestinians will accept such a solution, and both are small minorities.

The right wing Israelis want an Israel including Gaza and West Bank without Palestinians, just as a majority of the Palestinians want a complete Palestine (including the land within the Green Line) without Israelis.

Result : An unresolvable problem.

	14-09-2002 22:11									#37
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I celebrated this joyous occasion by changing my socks.

edit: and ripping off loinburgers joke

	14-09-2002 23:26									#38
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Eli, you have posted that picture about 10 times already.

When you reach 100 you get a free watch

It dont mean anything the FYROMian nationalist party which is in power frequently feeded its media with maps which had half of Greece captured by FYROM.

they always do that, then they wise up.

	14-09-2002 23:40									#39
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quote: Originally posted by AVN The right wing Israelis want an Israel including Gaza and West Bank without Palestinians,

Wrong.

Most right wing Israelis disagree with giving this land to the Palestinians NOW, or in the near future.

Those who want all the land and suggest transfer are a small minority.

	15-09-2002 01:02									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Most right wing Israelis disagree with giving this land to the Palestinians NOW, or in the near future.

Is there much difference between an official expulsion or an occupation with almost permanent curfews and no possibilities to live a normal life ?

And are these Israeli right wingers prepared to give up the whole Gaza and the whole Westbank, even if the Palestinians are prepared to accept the existance of Israel ?

quote: Those who want all the land and suggest transfer are a small minority.

OK, you have a point here, although we can discuss what is small

	15-09-2002 01:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by AVN Is there much difference between an official expulsion or an occupation with almost permanent curfews and no possibilities to live a normal life ?

Of course there is.

In the moment the terror stops(and not because we stop it, but because they decide to stop it) the curfews will be lifted. This happened for many times during this intifada.

The problem is that everytime we lift the curfews, we get a terror wave.

quote: And are these Israeli right wingers prepared to give up the whole Gaza and the whole Westbank, even if the Palestinians are prepared to accept the existance of Israel ?

Even the majority of the lefwingers doesnt agree to give all the Gaza Streep and Judea&Samaria.

Roughly... After 2-3 years of no terror, no incitement etc, most of the moderate right wingers will be willing to give... errr... let's say 80-85%.

	15-09-2002 01:57									#42
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I am gonna write George Bush and request the he, Donny Rumsfeld, and Lezza Rice get a map and draw permanent borders and send in America troops to enforce them.

	15-09-2002 03:04									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Even the majority of the lefwingers doesnt agree to give all the Gaza Streep and Judea&Samaria. Roughly... After 2-3 years of no terror, no incitement etc, most of the moderate right wingers will be willing to give... errr... let's say 80-85%.

According several UN resolutions (that means that the USA didn't veto them) Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders, which means giving up the Gaza Streep and Judea&Samaria and if IIRC East-Jerusalem.

If I interprete your reply correct you are saying there almost all of the Israelis (including left wingers) will never agree with the consequences of these resolutions.

Or do I make a mistake somewhere ?

	15-09-2002 03:06									#44
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You are absolutely right.

	15-09-2002 03:40									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Eli You are absolutely right.

IMO you have just proved that also the Israelis don't want a reasonable solution. Even if the Palestinians stop their terror and accept Israel.

	15-09-2002 13:15									#46
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Giving everything is not a reasonable solution. Both sides need to compromise.

	15-09-2002 14:44									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Giving everything is not a reasonable solution. Both sides need to compromise.

Agreed.
And IMO the UN resolutions are the best and most reasonable basis for that compromise.

But let's agree to disagree about that.

Thanks for the discussion.

Because CFC is up again, this will be my last post in this thread.

	15-09-2002 16:38									#48
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well, 'everything' as defined by 'what we agreed to give them last time around plus compromising on the issues we agreed we would discuss later'.

Of course, expecting Israel to stick to an agreement would be quite naive, wouldn't it?

	15-09-2002 16:40									#49
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Eli, you might want to change your signature. How about 'when Israelis value justice more than greed'? Would stay a lot closer to reality, although not said by someone famous, I guess.

	15-09-2002 16:40									#50
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Everything is defined by "what they officially demand". That is, the 1967 borders.

	15-09-2002 16:44									#51
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Ooooh, those horrible people. Demanding 22% of their own land.

Which was already agreed on in the Oslo accords.

-Israel? Keeping an agreement? Surely you must be joking, sir. Why, that hasn't happened since... Well, I don't think it ever did, sir!

	15-09-2002 16:48									#52
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Eli, you might want to change your signature. How about 'when Israelis value justice more than greed'? Would stay a lot closer to reality, although not said by someone famous, I guess.

"Justice" is too ambigous. It will be hard for non-antisemites to understand my sig if I use it.

	15-09-2002 16:48									#53
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Damn, that CFC guy seemed like a reasonable sort.

	15-09-2002 16:53									#54
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What's wrong with Eli's sig? Seems like a perfectly good thing for a grandmother to say... given that she lived through what she lived through and led her people through what she led them through.

	15-09-2002 16:53									#55
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well, 'when israelis value their own children more than greed' would work as well, but it would give the impression that Israel would give cease to occupy palestine only to save their childrens lives, not because it is the right thing. Of course, I still live with the naive belief that even Israel can develop basic human decency. Silly me.

Do change it to my second suggestion if you think that accurately reflects the sentiment.

	15-09-2002 16:55									#56
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notyou, why would it be love for your children that makes you condemn them to a life under oppression? Isn't it the greatest show of love that you are willing to risk your own life to make their future lives better?

Peace can only come when Israel stops the occupation. No propaganda can change that.

	15-09-2002 16:57									#57
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I think you're silly to adopt only one side of the argument.

Do you live there? No.

Should you be able to appreciate that the Israelis have legitimate concerns as well as the Palestinians? Yes. Do you? No.

	15-09-2002 16:59									#58
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Peace can only come when Israel stops the occupation. No propaganda can change that.

Quite incorrect. Peace can only come when the attacks stop. On both sides.

	15-09-2002 18:52									#59
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Some faulty logical play

Only If Israel stops occupation then peace will come.

Only ( Stop Occupation ) --> Peace
==
Peace - > Stop Occupation

If peace will come -> Israel will stop the occupation.

	15-09-2002 19:22									#60
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ROFL.



750+, here I come!