17-09-2002 17:39									#91
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Now, maybe a little OT, but my birthday actually happened to be 13th of September... and I also happened to turn 18, which is the legal age to buy alcohol (and do many other things, too... )...

...so you can guess that I did celebrate... too much.... way too much... a total 3-day psychosis...

	17-09-2002 17:58									#92
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Cybergnu,

Ah, so you were talking about Israel when you said "28% of Palestine." I thought so. It is indeed "demanding it all."

How about this for a compromise:

-All Israeli settlements within the West Bank and Gaza are removed. Every one of them.
-Israel withdraws from the territories, and cannot return
-West Bank/Gaza becomes Palestine
-No "right of return" for Palestinian refugees
-Jerusalem becomes an "international city"
-UN peacekeepers in Palestine for 5 (10?) years, preferably mostly made up of police. Many of the lack-of-infrastructure issues mirror those of Kosovo, where the local commanders kept asking for more cops instead of more combat troops.
-US aid agreement similar to the one w/Egypt: a percentage of aid to Israel (if we give Israel $4billion, we have to pony up $2billion to Palestine, or something like that)
-EU aid to Palestine to match US contribution

That seems more than fair to me. If the Arabs actually help out with some aid for the Pals too (unlikely), they should be in pretty good shape.

-Arrian

	17-09-2002 18:54									#93
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No they wouldn't continue terrorism if they would have all they request. If they would get however only like 50% of west bank and no Jerusalem then possibly some terrorism would continue. But not on such a big degree as it is now. Also, if Palestine would be a foreign country it would be much easier to negotiate with it (to solve terrorism problems). And if Israel would also give aid to a new country everything would be even more different. Less and less people would support terrorism with each year. Look what USA can do with simple aid/sanctions. It is definitely more than USA does with troops (Bin Laden still not found, Hussein still on power, etc.). This is the way Palestine should be granted independence in my opinion:

-year 1: Israel says they will give Palestine independence and orders immidiete withdrawal of all Jewish "newcomers" in Palestinian land. Army still remains there. All apartheid laws are cancelled. Palestinians either are encouraged to move to West Bank/Gaza Strip, either allowed to choose country they wants to live in freely (Israel or Palestine).

-start of year 2: Israel announces elections in Gaza Strip. Army would still be there and prevent any possible tryings to do various terror acts against voting people at election day. Also there would be many watchers from many countries (including Israel, Arab countries, EU countries, USA) who would watch if elections are rigged or not.

-middle of year 2: Israel recognises independence of Gaza Strip with capital at Gaza and retreats most of army from there. Gaza Strip is like a trying before the much bigger opperation to give independence to West Bank. In such Gaza Strip operation all pros and cons would be seen.

-end of year 2: Israel completely moves out army of Gaza Strip and starts giving aid to the country. The aid would be both military and economically. Of course it would encourage government of GS to help dealing with still remaining terrorists, who wants Israel completely destroyed.

-start of year 3: Isreal announces and does election in West Bank, everything in the same model as in Gaza Strip, just possible some updates would be done on the weak spots notticed.

-middle of year 3: Israel moves most of army from West Bank and recognises it's independence. Jerusalem is still part of Israel.

-end of year 3: Israel moves army out of West Bank and treats it just like Gaza strip. Whole idea of two countries instead of one would help to deal with terrorism - there is almost none chance both countries govts would later turn against Israel, terrorists organisations would have a bad time managing their "inventory" splitted up between two countries. Also, lobbying in two countries (to support terrorism) is harder than in one country.

-start of year 4: dispute over Jerusalem is being solved by one of the following ways:
*Israel gives eastern Jerusalem to West Bank and keeps western Jerusalem
*Israel gives all Jerusalem to West Bank
*Jerusalem is declared a demilitarised zone and is controlled by both countries (like Andorra was for a long time for example)
*Jerusalem is declared an independent state with both Hebrew and Arab languages as official and no official religion.

West Bank and Gaza Strip would be either allowed or disallowed to reunite for some time (like 2 years).

	17-09-2002 18:58									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Cybergnu, Ah, so you were talking about Israel when you said "28% of Palestine." I thought so. It is indeed "demanding it all." How about this for a compromise: -All Israeli settlements within the West Bank and Gaza are removed. Every one of them. -Israel withdraws from the territories, and cannot return -West Bank/Gaza becomes Palestine -No "right of return" for Palestinian refugees -Jerusalem becomes an "international city" -UN peacekeepers in Palestine for 5 (10?) years, preferably mostly made up of police. Many of the lack-of-infrastructure issues mirror those of Kosovo, where the local commanders kept asking for more cops instead of more combat troops. -US aid agreement similar to the one w/Egypt: a percentage of aid to Israel (if we give Israel $4billion, we have to pony up $2billion to Palestine, or something like that) -EU aid to Palestine to match US contribution That seems more than fair to me. If the Arabs actually help out with some aid for the Pals too (unlikely), they should be in pretty good shape. -Arrian

Yeah like a reasonable compromise is gonna be acceptable, there is no provision for continued killing and suffering here

	17-09-2002 22:15									#95
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Stinger,

If I was supreme dictator, it would happen! That's it, I'm running for supreme dictator!

-Flavius Arrianus Xenophon (gotta go with the full name now - helps in the polls).

	18-09-2002 01:33									#96
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quote: hi , even when they have "independence" they shall continue with terrorism , ...... and unless something has changed since this morning , there is no Jewish army , ...... if you find that Hamas is so peacefull , well come over for a cup of coffee , ....... actually ones again this thread is about people who have to deal with terrorism each day , and those who criticise people without even knowing all the facts , .... have a nice day

Thank You panag. The Palestinains will continue with terrorism no matter what. I find it so frustrating that Bush is fighting a war on terror around the world but still remians committed to creating a Palestine that will support terrorism.

	18-09-2002 02:40									#97
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OK, I know there is no Jewish army, it is called Israeli army, but since it is primarily serving for Jewish purposes, I called it Jewish army.

	18-09-2002 02:41									#98
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Arrian:

quote: Ah, so you were talking about Israel when you said "28% of Palestine." I thought so. It is indeed "demanding it all."

In that one single sentence you've understood more than Siro has managed in two years...

If a settlement is achieved a compromise is of course inevitable. Neither of the sides are going to cave.

Your suggestions does look fair to me. I think the RoR has to be improved somewhat, or it would be politically impossible for Arafat to sign the deal. Some sort of relocation plan where Israel, the EU and the US chips in to compensate nations to receive the refugees might work. Let each entity decide if thy want to pay arab countries to aceppt them, or if they'd rather adsorb them into their own population.

	18-09-2002 02:43									#99
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quote: Thank You panag. The Palestinains will continue with terrorism no matter what. I find it so frustrating that Bush is fighting a war on terror around the world but still remians committed to creating a Palestine that will support terrorism.

You mean just like the poles did after WW2? Oh, wait, they didn't. Well, the french surely did continue their resistance after germany withdrew, right? Damn, wrong again.

Do tell, do you have ANY backing of your statement, apart from your prejudice?

	18-09-2002 02:43									#100
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CyberGnu, Given that Europe and the US both want to have the issue of Palestine go away, we should do everything in our power to greese the skids towards a viable peace. To the extent we begin to punish one side or the other, we only create the seeds of a future war. Compare how the British and French treated Germany at the end of WWI with the way the US treated Germany at the end of WWII.

Just off the top of my head I would do the following: Restore the '67 borders save for the Golan and Jerusalem. Both parties can declare Jerusalem their capital. Guarantee access to holy sites. Permit return of the refugees to any Arab country, with compensation paid for by the UN with funds contributed by the whole world. Provide Israeli refugees from Arab lands similar compensation. Provide for an active UN "peacemaking" force in Lebanon, and a peace keeping force between Palestine and Israel.

Perhaps as a sign of goodwill, both Arafat and Sharon should offer their mutual resignations upon signing the deal.

CyberGnu, it would also be "nice" if you toned down your rehetoric just a bit.

	18-09-2002 02:50									#101
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Punish?

In this case it would be to make sure that the economy of palestine doesn't lag behind Israel. That would surely create more resentment than anything else.

But apart from that, also good suggestions.

As you might see, my rhetoric shifts depending on who it is aimed to. While I don't agree with you on most points in this issue, I do respect you and your intellect. I consequently try to keep my posts to a sensible level.

Replying to Siros posts, on the other hand, usually starts with the mental equivalent of banging my forehead against a brick wall numerous times. This tends to get my adrenaline going...

And don't even get me started on Eli, who usually begins every post with accusations about anti-semitism, nazi-sympathies and possibly lewd remarks about my immediate family. (OK, that last one isn't true.) You see what I mean?

	18-09-2002 02:50									#102
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I celebrated it just as much as any other country's independance day: I didn't.

If I were to celebrate every county's independance day, I wouldn't be able to do much else, would I? Canada Day is it for me, and on July 4 I might mentally wish the Americans good luck.

	18-09-2002 02:56									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic OK, I know there is no Jewish army, it is called Israeli army, but since it is primarily serving for Jewish purposes, I called it Jewish army.

hi ,

so , you are still living in the USSR , .....


its intresting to see that you have completely forgotten history and all the facts , ......

as for the others , in 1936 someone wrote on a wall

"Jews go to palestine"

the same location today reads

"Jews get out of palestine"

, ...................


as for the so called jew army of yours , well then what are all those muslims doing , ......... or Druze , or Greek orthodox ones , ........

yeah , you really have a nice view on facts , .......

since you can post here , that means you can get on the net , so you can find facts , .......

, why dont you come over and see for yourself , ......

have a nice day

	18-09-2002 03:42									#104
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Panag, yes, USSR army also primarily served Russian purposes (it was prepared to be used against any demonstrations in the occupied nations). Also, what facts I do not know in your opinion (you are telling me to "learn the facts", but never named what facts; as for term Jewish army (Israeli army) I already explained it )?

As for writing on the wall, I (and most of people who support Palestinian independence) am not asking Jews to get out of whole Palestine (or lands, which were known as Palestine when they were part of Britain - all the current Israel), just out of what we now call Palestine (West Bank and Gaza Strip). Also to give back illegally occupied Golan Heights back to Syria.

	18-09-2002 05:33									#105
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quote: Do tell, do you have ANY backing of your statement, apart from your prejudice?

I will admit that is one of the problems, prejudice. I will never understand the people that support a Palestine and most who support a Palestine will never fully understand those that do. CyberGnu I respect your views but do not agree with them.

quote: Just off the top of my head I would do the following: Restore the '67 borders save for the Golan and Jerusalem. Both parties can declare Jerusalem their capital. Guarantee access to holy sites. Permit return of the refugees to any Arab country, with compensation paid for by the UN with funds contributed by the whole world. Provide Israeli refugees from Arab lands similar compensation. Provide for an active UN "peacemaking" force in Lebanon, and a peace keeping force between Palestine and Israel.

Ned this is a dream. I think this is a brilliant idea. If only it where that easy.

	18-09-2002 05:47									#106
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Sheik, I think the ultimate peace treaty will take the form I suggest, but of course, with a lot more bells and whistles. The reason I think this is because Clinton was willing to commit the US to $20 billion in aid to Palestine to help cement the Camp David deal. Surely, the US and Europe can together solve this problem with a bucketful of money an a few peacekeepers.

	20-09-2002 03:22									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Panag, yes, USSR army also primarily served Russian purposes (it was prepared to be used against any demonstrations in the occupied nations). Also, what facts I do not know in your opinion (you are telling me to "learn the facts", but never named what facts; as for term Jewish army (Israeli army) I already explained it )? As for writing on the wall, I (and most of people who support Palestinian independence) am not asking Jews to get out of whole Palestine (or lands, which were known as Palestine when they were part of Britain - all the current Israel), just out of what we now call Palestine (West Bank and Gaza Strip). Also to give back illegally occupied Golan Heights back to Syria.

hi ,


first of all , palestine includes more then just the w-bank and gaza , ......

illigally occupied , well , ask them to withdraw from libanon first , .....

part of britain , ........lol , .... man , learn what happend before and after , why the brits where there , etc , ....

still there is no jewish army , ....

there are Greek orthodox , sunni and shiite muslim , druze , copt , christian , non religious , etc , .....

so what is your point of a jewish army , .....

where you asking the russian to move or to stay when they where in your country , ....?

anyway , come and see , so you can learn , ....

have a nice day