14-09-2002 05:45									#1
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Up to now we have not seriously considered ranged weapons. Soon we will be entering the invasion of the persian homeland. I want to know what the feeling regarding catapults are, my experience is that 5 catapults can just about pulverize a cities defense and thus help in an attack. I was particularly wondeing about making them for phase 2(the attack on antioch and the persian heartland). There will we encounter larger well defended cities who can get reinforcements and offensive units. It would be best if we could damage these units and defenses before we stormed the city.
Aggie

	14-09-2002 05:50									#2
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Catapults are great IMHO. As much as really hate them when 5 in a row fail the fact that they never die and can be upgraded makes them great.
Previously I didn't think we could really afford to build any but if the SMC wants to build catapults (probably at the expense of other millitary units) then great. The sooner we have a stack of catapults that will last right through to the end of the game the better.

	14-09-2002 06:04									#3
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Opd i pretty much agree with you. Right now I making very general plans for the assault on e persia, When I have all the responses ( and after we have tyre), I will make more precise plans and numbers. Right now i'm imagining 2 10men army(exact components to be decided later). One will head toward antioch and pasagarde and arbela and the other force will go se toward the capital and point e and se of there. The catapults will go with this force since that is where the heaviest resistance will be I suspect. (The catapult are in addition to the army).
Aggie

	14-09-2002 06:18									#4
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Catapults sound like they could prove very useful in the protracted war, say we build catapults(haul to the front in galleys) and horsemen(run to the front over roads). We could use a pikeman or two to protect our catapult stacks and attack the weakened defenders with horsemen.

Later the horsemen will upgrade to Knights then Cavalry, and the catapults to cannon then artillery so any units we build will have a long life of usefulness.

	14-09-2002 06:27									#5
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Good idea ghengis though with roads we could do almost as well using land movment. The e persian nation due to being grassland is indeed prime real estate for horsemen. We could do a blitzkreig and let the heavier units attack the north. Remember the quicker we win the less chance of culture flip. After the war we can station the remains of the army in persepolis to deter such a flip.
Aggie

	14-09-2002 09:12									#6
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Good plan, Ghengis. Catapults can upgrade...

	14-09-2002 10:09									#7
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I think the idea of two types of offensive stacks would help us... the first containing longbowmen/pikemen/catapults (all mvmt-1 units that can upgrade basically) as well as any leftover swordsmen we've got, while the second type of offensive stack would contain horsemen/faster units.

We could blow through their defenses with our fast stacks (which could go out into their terratory, attack, and then retreat and repair while a second stack goes in, creating a rotation so that they're always under attack) and then slowly take cities with our slow stacks.

Just a thought... if we did one slow stack per city (probably wouldn't have a catapult in that case), and three fast stacks that rotated so that they were always either attacking, repairing, or in transit, we could take over the Persians bit by bit while loosing very few units.

Of course, Military Strategy isn't my strong point, so any thoughts?

-- adaMada

	14-09-2002 10:18									#8
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Where do the swordmen fit into the first attack strategy?
Use of the galleys would divert them from colonisation of Uber Isle which is a high priority.

Which begs to ask the question, What is more important, the conquest of Persia (Pyramids) or Uber Isle?

	14-09-2002 10:25									#9
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Well hi there, brethren Kiwi!

Fortunately, there are no other civs that even know the location of Uber Island thanks to painstaking measures initiated by the Foreign Affairs Ministry. We have a plan in motion for colonising this island and exploring it's unknown wonders, and the Galleys are IIRC not needed by the Supreme Apolytonian Army. If they are, we may divert resources in the homelands to construction of a third Galley for the colonisation plan to progress.

As for Persia, they are a dangerous foe - but we have caught them with their pantaloons around their ankles reading smuggled copies of the Gazette (their papers have yet get in motion - it is difficult to print without Iron type!). It is not often we can expect an opportunity like this, and as much as I love the jungles of Apolytonia that I call home, we must to greener pastures - places like the Persian homelands!

	16-09-2002 20:31									#10
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hi ,

catapults are great , but should we waste our time now on building them , .........

have a nice day

	16-09-2002 20:44									#11
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quote: Originally posted by OPD The sooner we have a stack of catapults that will last right through to the end of the game the better.

There! You said it. I always end up with a very useful stack of catapults / cannons / artillery that last a long time throughout the entire game.

They can't be "killed", either. Combined with the fact that the AI is not very skilled at using captured catapults, it makes them a great asset to your army.

I often use catapults to soften up enemy defenders, before moving in with my elite units, so that they have a good chance of surviving a battle and generating Leaders.

	16-09-2002 20:52									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Good idea ghengis though with roads we could do almost as well using land movment. The e persian nation due to being grassland is indeed prime real estate for horsemen. We could do a blitzkreig and let the heavier units attack the north. Remember the quicker we win the less chance of culture flip. After the war we can station the remains of the army in persepolis to deter such a flip. Aggie

After we win the Persian capitals going to be way up north somewhere, I don't see why our Elite army can't march north and take possession of the American rebellion.

	16-09-2002 21:36									#13
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very simple we need to use catapults and even more so in the future. (I had a strang vision about some thing the people from my vision called cannons).
I support the general attack plan from Aggie but i would like to say that maybe one big force will work better . as far as we know all persian cities are connected. so as soon as we captured one of there cities!? we can move atleast two tiles over roads and then we are in persian terrritory again. the units that were injured are healed in the captured city because of the Sun Tzu barrack (we are building that with the GL right?) and they can support the one big army very fast this way every two or three turns (with luck and a mobile force even maybe sooner) we capture a city and the most frontier city is occupied by a strong force. so counter attack can be dealt with easily. if we split up our forces we may take one or two cities and then find out that we havent got the surplus in power to attack and the advance holds. if we use one big force the losses will probably be less so we can advance a lot longer, only not with capturing 2 cities in the initial assault.

ok this seems a little like rammbling but that is because I just poured my ideas out

	16-09-2002 21:53									#14
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DBTS, I will consider specific plans for the final push once we get gordium, it could be that we have one giant push instead of 2 thrust. By the way i'm amazed that you give good input into two games. I keep meaning to get more into the SMAC demo game, but due to figuring out order etc, am unable to participate more than just looking.
Aggie

	16-09-2002 21:58									#15
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The sad thing is I never build any ranged engines, I capture a few now and then but that's it.

In Warhammer I use massive amounts of artillery but not in Civ3, don't know why.

The strange thing is that actually use to be my job. So you'd think I'd use them all the time.

	16-09-2002 22:42									#16
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Well actually I have noticed in wars like we are in know I usually capture 1 or 2. So i only build 1 or 2. For a matter of fact I can almost gaurentee 1 catapult in Persolpis, and pasaguarde.
Aggie

	17-09-2002 11:48									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb The sad thing is I never build any ranged engines, I capture a few now and then but that's it. The strange thing is that actually use to be my job. So you'd think I'd use them all the time.

Your job is to use catapults..?

	17-09-2002 15:54									#18
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Your job is to use catapults..?

hi ,

he was probably working with artillery , ........

now depending on the country , ......

have a nice day

	17-09-2002 16:10									#19
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Yes, artillery. Although, now that I'm no longer full time we practice with Napoleonic era cannons called 102's.

	17-09-2002 16:17									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Yes, artillery. Although, now that I'm no longer full time we practice with Napoleonic era cannons called 102's.

hi ,

okay guys here is a pic of GF doing his job , .....

and by the way , there goes nothing above a smooth bore from rheinmetal , .....

have a nice day

	17-09-2002 16:26									#21
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Here's a better pic of my job.

Attachment: m109a6.gif
This has been downloaded 51 time(s).

	17-09-2002 16:31									#22
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Here's a better pic of my job.

hi ,

, that is what we needed in civIII , ...... SP art , ....

hey , is this a fase one or a face two one ? - bore wise

have a nice day

	17-09-2002 17:45									#23
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Thats so cool Ghengis can I get one of those. Hey do you want to be presidential bodyguard? You have to bring one of those stupidly big tanks and you get to kill people all the time.

	17-09-2002 17:53									#24
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quote: Originally posted by panag hey , is this a fase one or a face two one ? - bore wise

Phase two. The US is pretty good about upgrading all of its active equipment once a retrofit is available.

quote: Originally posted by OPD Thats so cool Ghengis can I get one of those. Hey do you want to be presidential bodyguard? You have to bring one of those stupidly big tanks and you get to kill people all the time.

Sure I'll be the bodyguard. The pic is an M109A2 Howitzer Paladin (I used to be on those) now I'm on a 102 (its small and has to be pulled by a horse or vehicle or something, think Napoleonic warfare) cause I'm in the guard waiting for OCS to start.

We went to Fort Polk for training this June and one of the 102s fell in the Mississippi and they decided not to go after it (its Napoleonic era anyway) so some of us were thinking of going down there and trying to pull it out ourselves and clean it up.

	17-09-2002 19:49									#25
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@ GF that a pretty cool car, what is the retail on one of those

@Aggie the SmacDG is just beginnen?! (only two bases) and it is fun and more active members are always welcome

spam? NO look--------->

i still say we need to build the catapults. they will be helpfull in not only taking cities but also attacking units outside the cities. it is a very effective way to deal with reinforcements IMHO.

	17-09-2002 20:02									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword @ GF that a pretty cool car, what is the retail on one of those

I remember when I was a wee little PFC and they first told me I was going to drive. I was all afraid I was going to break something, and my Chief told me drive towards a forest at full speed.

I kept asking if he wanted me to turn and he said no, keep going full speed.

5 miniutes later there were two forests with a 25 foot gap separating them.

And a lot of logs cluttering up my hatch.

Ahh the thrill of feeling invincible..........

Course I was driving an Abrams and I don't think howitzers move as fast.

	17-09-2002 20:02									#27
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I have experienced the AI's tendency to discontinue attacks with wounded units. If our catapults could damage enemy units, we might scare them off.

	17-09-2002 21:34									#28
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quote: Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar= Course I was driving an Abrams and I don't think howitzers move as fast.

No, I don't think Howitzers can go over 40 mph. And they only run over young trees, they would probably get stuck in your forest.

I think the situation you described is a ritual for new track drivers I and several of my friends all had pretty much the same experience.

	17-09-2002 21:47									#29
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This is a pertient question: when did our aim vs. Persia become the capture of several major cities if not full conquest? As far as I knew, ours was a punitve move to teach them a lesson, going as far as Arbela to deny them iron. Now I hear talk of creating catapults to haul up to Parsagadae...

I agree on the greatness of the arty chain- though as much as I use arty (love that 30 arty stack), I rarely get them from upgrades up from catapults.

I must agree with our outgoing Pharaoh- we should spend our energies on improving the Empire we have, the biggest in the world, and colonizing Uber isle, helping to keep our empire the biggest in the world. So, no to using our energies to bulding catapults and the ships to get them there around the mountain jungle hell that is the fronteir.

	17-09-2002 22:10									#30
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Well Gepap we are talking just in case we do, obviously if the opportunity presents itself we might continue. Also no need for boats since the kind persians have a road right into there heartland, they were so considerate.
Aggie