15-09-2002 17:45									#31
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Why are people so opposed to owning Sun Tzu, it isn't going to cost us anything as we're going to get more GLs. The only way we lose is to NOT immediately use the GL, that'l cost us several more GLs.

Also Sun Tzu makes the war in Persia oh so easy as every city we take will AUTOMATICALLY have a barracks and heal our advancing armies in ONE TURN!

	15-09-2002 18:14									#32
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GF. the army now will make more GLs later (with HE). More GWs later.

Sun Tzu's is a very minor GW when the entire game is played out.

	15-09-2002 18:14									#33
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Sistine is much more significant.

If the people insist on a GW, I would go Sistine in Poly.

	15-09-2002 18:20									#34
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The biggest plus for Sun Tzu is that it makes for very easy upgrades -- when we get around to rebuilding our empire, we could stockpile cash and then upgrade all our spearmen, and it'd be a piece of cake. No defensive shuffle or anything.

Can someone remind me if Sun Tzus ever expires?

Besides that, I'm coming more around to the idea of using it now. The most important thing is that we get some wonder, since we were falling so far behind in the race. I understand the Army-Heroic Epic idea, but I'm also curious as to how much people think the Heroic Epic helps. I remember it being considered fairly useless, but I didn't play too many games after this patch came out and wasn't reading the Civ3 Strat parts of the forums then, so it might have changed...

If we do create an army, though, I say put it in a city and hang on to it. We can use it with knights (I'd really like to hold it till calvary, since then it'd have uses for practically the rest of the game, but I know I won't get any support holding it that long, and we might not be in a war then, so...)

-- adaMada

	15-09-2002 18:27									#35
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Sistine is not an option. We don't have Theology nor is it possible to buy it for a reasonable price. As I already said, the only reasonable way to acquire Theology is through peace terms with Persia and that's not going to happen in the immediate to near future.

Regarding Sun Tzu's:

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Also Sun Tzu makes the war in Persia oh so easy as every city we take will AUTOMATICALLY have a barracks and heal our advancing armies in ONE TURN!

Agreed. Sun Tzu's will make the war in Persia much easier, and any war afterwards.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Relax. This is a computer AI we're fighting, not a human.

Yes, but when it comes to rolling dice, humans and AIs are equal.
If we fight an AI with Sun Tzu's their units will be 33% stronger, meaning we'll have to use 33% more units to achieve the same goals.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And we can build barracks that offset that advantage.

Why are you so eager to give an AI this advantage in the first place?
Also, it's true that owning barracks will offset this advantage and we'll be in an equal position, but if the AI didn't have Sun Tzu's we would be in an ADVANTAGE.
Letting a powerful AI build Sun Tzu's means giving up one of our greater advantages.

	15-09-2002 18:29									#36
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada Can someone remind me if Sun Tzus ever expires?

It doesn't.

	15-09-2002 18:59									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber It doesn't.

Ok. That's what I thought, but I've been making too many Civ3-knowledge mistakes, so just checking .

I think in this lies Sun Tzu's main advantage. I can't remember if Barracks still expire and have to be rebuilt as in Civ 3, but even if they don't, Sun Tzu will allow us to have instant Barracks in every city we take, so we'll always have them at the front, and will always be able to make mass upgrades without shuffling units. It seems more and more attractive to me if we're going to be using the Leader now, though I still think there are other things in the future that we could better use it on if we were willing to accept the loss of time and opportunities to gain another (Remembering that this is our third war, and only the first time we've gotten it -- odds are that we won't get anther this war, even if it is our longest and most extensive so far). (Leo's workshop would be a really nice thing to have, considering the way we're playing, for instance).

-- adaMada

	15-09-2002 19:17									#38
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I'm considering redoing this poll, with just Wonder vs Army vote. Should I? or the people who voted for FP and wait can say what their second option is. This could be super important decision and I think we should make it carefully. Another question, can an elite unit that has already made a GL, produce another, if not we could enter the elite horse that produced this GL into an army if we make one. Yes shiber this is our first GL in our 3 wars, but remember this is the first war in which we had elites involved.
Aggie

	15-09-2002 19:22									#39
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I believe we should go for either an Army or Sun Tzu. Both would increase our chances of getting another GL. I am leaning toward Sun Tzu right now since it gives more bonuses.

	15-09-2002 19:27									#40
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The unit who produces a leader can't do it anymore. Btw, it's a good idea repoll this, Wonder vs Army.

	15-09-2002 19:39									#41
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Great idea Aggie.
I recommend that instead of wonder you put Sun Tzu's Art of War, unless anyone strongly objects and thinks we should rather wait a while for the Sistine Chapel or Leo's Workshop.

	15-09-2002 19:42									#42
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The Chapel and Workshop are more "keep him for later." choices as we can build Sun Tzu immediately while it would take a peace with Persia before we would be able to go after the Chapel or Workshop.

	15-09-2002 20:06									#43
	Sun Tzu for these reasons Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Allows a smaller supply train & cheaper Army. With ST, whenever we try to take an enemy city, we have wounded. Normally, it would take several terns for the wounded to heal, in a normal city or on native soil. If the wounded was a mounted unit, it would be faster to send it to a close city that has a barracks and send it quickly back to the front. You can't do that when your on a long campain to take out a Civ, you need to either have a larger army or have barracks close at hand. Sun Tzu's provide that.

We are fighting on a shoestring and winning (Go AGGIE), but each unit that we built costs time and money to build. We HAVE been very lucky and won most of the fire fights with minimal losses. Any counter attacks on any city garrisons that survive the inital assault will be instantly healed for the next wave. Conversly, If someone else gets it first and we go to fight them, Any of their garrisons that aren't outright killed in a turns play will have waisted what effort/units to have wounded it for the next turn.

We should not expect the Banana to point at our armies and bless their efforts at all times, The Banana is fickle too, we need to also show that we are worthy of him. Using the GL for Sun Tzu's would be the best way of using The Banana's gift.

Also, We quake in our boots if the Greeks or Romans call and want something. With ST, we can stand up to the big guys a bit more often.

Remember, this IS the most important desision of the age. Do not let the Banana down!

E_T

	15-09-2002 20:14									#44
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Ok I'm starting the "runoff poll". The choices will be Sun tsu's or Army. Yes another wonder is possible, but I(and I suspect anybody else), don't wants to sit on a GL. By the way, who does make the decision on what to do with GL(and with such worthy options, the votes will be close). NYE, this is definitely something to look at for new col.
Aggie

	15-09-2002 20:41									#45
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Just for clarification what was the ai's demanding price for theology if we bought it now? Normally, Id automatically agree and say why pay alot when we will get it for free in the near future, but it maybe worth it since we'd also be basically buying the sistine.

If that is truelly out of the question though, Ill go ahead and vote for the army. The main reason is I think there's a good chance we'll end up owning Sun Tzu's anyways if the English or Germans get it, and there's still a decent chance even if the Greeks or Aztecs get it. As war-like as this game has been to this point though, and assuming its not going to change, the heroic epic, military academy, and pentagon could be a great benefit to us in the long run. Especially the military academy, which IMO is the real reason to take an army now and not the HE which may or may not ever benefit us.

	15-09-2002 22:31									#46
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Is this an official poll? I voted Army, I agree with MWIA and nye's assessment of the lack of need for the Art of War.

	17-09-2002 03:26									#47
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Tough choice, but I say build an army. I would pick a wonder first, if I could garentee an other great leader in the near future. But experience has shown me that GLs can be few and far between.

	17-09-2002 05:52									#48
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Just remember, if we purchase sun tzu, the other civs that are working on it will switch to micheolangelos (wow, did I spell that messed up.....) ASAP and will build it first.... thus we only have a choice of one or the other. The other will by default go by us, along with possibily leo's, which I feel is the most important of the three. So I say first Army, then hold him for leo's.

	17-09-2002 07:01									#49
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I have NEVER had a problem getting GLs, I am now and have been for a while of the opinion that the inability to produce GLs is a direct result of the strategic failure of the player to maximize their chances.

Simple GL maximization rules:
ALL units are constructed in cities with barracks.
Veteran units have one mission and one mission only: Get promoted to Elite.
Elite units have one mission and one mission only: win a combat to generate a GL.
Units that have generated a GL go into armies, and they are the ONLY units that go into armies.

From game experience we will generate at least 2 more GL's from the Persian war (assuming we take the entire homeland).

When Sun Tzu is built EVERYONE who hasn't built it will switch to the Sistine Chapel. It is entirely possible that within 2 turns both Sun Tzu and the Sistine Chapel will have been built by other civs and we still won't own Theology.

We can have Sun Tzu, let's take it. We have a shot at Sistine Chapel, let's try for it. We have an opportunity to seize the Pyramids, let's go for it.

	17-09-2002 11:11									#50
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For those concerned about another civ building the chapel, which wonder do you think would be harder to take by force? SunTzu or Sistine?

	17-09-2002 11:25									#51
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal For those concerned about another civ building the chapel, which wonder do you think would be harder to take by force? SunTzu or Sistine?

Well, donegeal has a STRONG point.

	17-09-2002 11:27									#52
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Either and neither.

SunTzu's might be built across the world, while Sistine might be built on our borders. Or the reverse. Circumstances involve a lot more than whether any one or other civ has tropps with 4 pips over 3.

One thing though, you gain no culture from a captured wonder.

	17-09-2002 17:04									#53
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hi ,

go for that army , or wait until we can have the chapel , ....

have a nice day

	17-09-2002 17:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither One thing though, you gain no culture from a captured wonder.

Exactly. Thank you NYE. Capture Sun's, and we get the benefit. Capture Sistine's, and we get the cathedral boost, but miss out on the culture points, which are huge.

	17-09-2002 17:40									#55
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Build a wonder now, our citizens are going to keep whining until the only wonders we have are the ones we have to take.

	17-09-2002 17:54									#56
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Yes, by all means, build a wonder now. But first, buy theology, and build the right one. Pay the price, because what you're buying is the Chapel.

[edit: in other words, I'm not voting in this poll, because my choice is not listed.]

	17-09-2002 17:58									#57
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If we can afford to buy Theology (or we get it for peace ), we should do as Robber Baron said. The Sistine is incredibly powerful, especially for religious civs like us.

If not, let's rush Sun Tzu's, because it's not right to preserve a leader while still a war is going.