15-09-2002 05:51									#1
	What do we do with our great leader Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It has happened, our glorious armies have produced a greatleader, so here the poll to decide to what use he will be put to.
Aggie

	15-09-2002 05:54									#2
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Wonder or later.

	15-09-2002 06:00									#3
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Army! Now, during the war so it can win one.

	15-09-2002 06:11									#4
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Our army is doing ok and Aggie is doing a good job. I don't think we need one.

Wait, what did I say. Army! Army! I almost got kicked out of the Hawk party there.

	15-09-2002 06:12									#5
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Personally I am torn, an army would be nice but Sun tsu war academy could help very much with barracks every and remeber we would gain an extra 6 gold a turns since we wouldn't have to pay support. On the other hand if we could build army and win and then maybe build heroic epic and get more GL, the choice is truly hard. We definitely don't want to keep him since we have quite a few elite units now who will soon be in battle again.
Aggie

	15-09-2002 06:16									#6
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USE IT NOW!

I don't care what for JUST USE IT!

No point wasting the other GLs we might get because your licking the boots of the one we just got.

But I'd say Sun Tsu. We got a good shot at another leader and can always use a leader for an army, we may not have another shot at a wonder when we have a GL as some one else may finish them and I really don't like the idea of the Greeks, Romans, Aztecs, or Persians have Sun Tzu.

	15-09-2002 07:02									#7
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Agreed. Use it now. Build Sun Tzu.

	15-09-2002 07:07									#8
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Save it for later.

Specifically a wonder, I'm thinking.

If we can't do it later, though (which might not be a bad idea, give us an opportunity to generate another through the Persian war) then let's use it on a Wonder now (Sun Tsu would be nice)...

-- adaMada

	15-09-2002 07:14									#9
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Also another question, where should be build a wonder with it, if thats the plan.
Aggie

	15-09-2002 07:19									#10
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What about the cultural benefits of a Wonder to our nation? Does that have any effect on what we do?

	15-09-2002 07:25									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Also another question, where should be build a wonder with it, if thats the plan. Aggie

Well, maybe in one of the most secure towns. Apolyton, Tassagrad, BHQ or Loveshack.

	15-09-2002 07:27									#12
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We could always put it on Uber Isle, if we wanted to risk the leader should we mess up... it has the benefit of being very secure, but the disadvantage of having very little defense, and would be useless for any wonder with continent-wide affects.

-- adaMada

	15-09-2002 07:37									#13
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A wonder, specifically Sun Tzu's. Barracks in every city will be a very great benefit. I think it's only for cities on its continent, however, so it must be built on mainland Ababanana.

	15-09-2002 07:59									#14
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Army now, Heroic Epic, more leaders later. More Wonders later.

	15-09-2002 08:38									#15
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I voted "Wonder", but notyoueither has an interesting point. My doubt is about how many turns we need to build the Heroic Epic.

	15-09-2002 08:44									#16
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I used to be for the army but I feel we'll generate at least one more in the Persian war and I really don't like the idea of one of our AI competitors on the continent getting Sun Tzu.

	15-09-2002 09:08									#17
	Got spare money?

Lets use the leader to create an army and then build heroic epic for more GLs later.

We can build Sun Tzu with another GL or just build it naturally.

	15-09-2002 09:53									#18
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One reason i have against army is this, we would have a pretty poor excuse for an army with jusy swords, i usually prefer to have at least knights in the army. Of course lets face it, it would be nice to have a 3 sword army that could pound persians cities pretty much without fear of defeat. Still I think after much consideration i have to push for a wonder and Sun Tsu's War Academy would be a might prize, but for the record it is a hard choice and i would enjoy an army too, so either way as SMC i win.
Aggie

	15-09-2002 10:01									#19
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Why is everyone talking about Sun Tsu, and not the Sistine Chapel? Is there some problem with Michelangelo? The idea of doubling the effects of Cathedrals sounds very good, and don't forget they are easier to build than for a non-religious civ. I am spit between Sun Tsu and Sistine Chapel(should we get Theology somehow). An Army won't be very effective right now, and it would take a while to build the Heroic Epic. Frankly, better to us the GL right now.

	15-09-2002 10:01									#20
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Definately an ARMY !
Then the heroic epic !

Worry about what to wonder to rush with the 2nd leader

	15-09-2002 10:03									#21
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Good point actually, we can get the army now, and save it for Knights or Cav. In the meantime we could get another great leader, and use him to rush a wonder. And should we not get another GL in this war, with our army we could prepare a FP somewhere, start a war with the army, and be able to build the Heroic Epic quickly. This is no easy choice.

	15-09-2002 10:49									#22
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Put 2 horse in the army. A cav can be added later to add to the strength, and then a tank.

	15-09-2002 15:51									#23
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I'd normally say first army so we could build the Heroic Epic later to get more great leaders but this is an exception. Sun Tzu's Art of War is a wonder that we simply CANNOT pass up, plus if one of our foes gets it before we do they'll be terribly hard to defeat later.

	15-09-2002 15:53									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

As it doesn't look like FP can win I'll have to say army. Wonder would be nice but there aren't any decent ones avaliable ATM.

Edit except perhaps if we wait a few turns and build sistine.

Last edited by OPD on 15-09-2002 at 15:59

	15-09-2002 16:01									#25
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Sun Tzu's is one of the least valuable Wonders.

You can build barracks where ever you need them in the fullness of time.

With competent handeling, any human controlled army of comparable size will demolish any AI army.

The AI having 4 pips instead of 3 is no big deal; and if we plan right, we shouldn't be hard pressed without the free barracks either.

	15-09-2002 16:15									#26
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I agree with the Army idea. Sun Tzu's ain't too necessary with all our Barracks, and we will have plenty of opportunities for more GLs (hopefully) in the continuation of the war. The one thing it looks like most of us agrrree on is that we must deal with the GL now.

	15-09-2002 16:55									#27
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The AI having 4 pips instead of 3 is no big deal;

It increases their chances of winning a battle by 33%. It makes a huge difference, especially when we're fighting long campaigns.
The AIs don't tend to build barracks. I usually find myself facing regular units even during the industrial age. With Sun Tzu's wonder the AI that builds it will become much more powerful.
Greece, England, Rome and Germany, the four toughest civs are likely to get it since they've already been building it for quite some time and they are the most productive civs. Would you like to face a Greek army that is 1.33 times stronger?

quote: Originally posted by OPD Wonder would be nice but there aren't any decent ones avaliable ATM.

Once we sue Persia for peace we can get Theology from them. However it won't be wise to wait until then because the GL can reach Mingapulco (I believe this is where we want to build our wonder if we decide to do so) within two to three turns.
Since we can't buy Theology from any of the other civs for a decent price, and since we want to continue the Persian campaign for now, it means that voting for using the GL for a wonder and doing it now means voting for using it for Sun Tzu's wonder. There are no other options available to us.

	15-09-2002 17:17									#28
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This leader should NOT be used for the Sistine Chapel! The Sistine Chapel is not worth the sacrifice of the Heroic Epic, 1-2 armies, AND the Forbidden Palace which is exactly what it could cost us if we sit on this GL and decide not to generate anymore until we get Theology.

I say Sun Tzu as its like pulling teeth to get anyone in our civ to allow the building of barracks as they all want to build walls. The biggest benefit is the fact that the AI doesn't have it so we will only face regular status against most of their military units. Also, there's the cost savings of not having to pay maintenance for all those barracks.

I think Sun Tzu OR army but there is NO REASON to not use it immediately, that's simply poor game play strategy. I also think it should be built in a close city like Ubergorsk.

Ubergorsk is fitting as it was right on the battlezone with Tyre and would have been an excellent place for some general like Sun to have written down their military observations from a mountaintop while watching battles. Uber should be a safe city as it will be deep in our empire when the Persian war is over and I see no threat of Persia getting anywhere near it now.

	15-09-2002 17:37									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber It increases their chances of winning a battle by 33%. It makes a huge difference, especially when we're fighting long campaigns. The AIs don't tend to build barracks. I usually find myself facing regular units even during the industrial age. With Sun Tzu's wonder the AI that builds it will become much more powerful. Greece, England, Rome and Germany, the four toughest civs are likely to get it since they've already been building it for quite some time and they are the most productive civs. Would you like to face a Greek army that is 1.33 times stronger?

Relax. This is a computer AI we're fighting, not a human.

And we can build barracks that offset that advantage. It is one of the cheapest buildings going.

I usually walk through the Greeks. And especially in this situation. Remember, the dominant civs in the early going fill up their TOEs with old, outdated units. By the time Alex has Sun Tzu's he won't build very many units unless he loses some.

Honestly, with the attention that is being paid every 5 turns or so (a lot of it yours)... I'd be surprised if we could lose. There are faster ways of winning though, and Sun Tzu's ain't it.

	15-09-2002 17:38									#30
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I think we should use it immediately since a civilization can't have two great leaders at once so we'll be missing opportunities for more GLs as long as we hold on to him.
However, if we see a great opportunity and we'll only have to wait 2-3 turns to get it then we should seize it and hold the GL for a few turns. Otherwise, we should use it immediately.