16-09-2002 23:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by vulture . . . . it does look as though different people's games are behaving in a somewhat different manner [. . . ]Which suggests either a bug, a dodgy installation of the game, or some extra variable that we're all overlooking so far.

I agree that the game can behave in funny ways sometimes - not too long ago I posted a game in which I was able to trade luxury and strategic resources as part of a peace treaty (not a renegotiation) - I haven't seen that possibility since that particular game - Theseus later had it happen to him in a different game, but in only one instance. So I do think that the game gets a little quirky sometimes.

Nonetheless, I really believe that the default rule is that with the technological know-how you capture units, without the know-how you destroy the units. I ginned up a simple scenario pair to test it, and confirmed that at least in the test case the technology advancement of the "capturer" seems to be the determinative factor on capture or destroy. Happy to post a zip with the two different test scenarios if anyone is really interested.

Catt

	16-09-2002 23:41									#32
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I don't think that anybody disagrees that you must at a least have the technolgy to capture a device. The only thing hanging is even with it can you capture a stl bomber? Some are saying they have and that may be the final answer.

	16-09-2002 23:55									#33
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quote: Originally posted by vulture Well cannons do arrive with Metallurgy rather than Military Tradition The resources to build a unit seem to be irrelevant to whether they can be captured. But it does look as though different people's games are behaving in a somewhat different manner. I imagine that vmxa1 and Thrawn05 are able to tell whether they have the techs to build e.g. stealth bombers when those units are destroyed when capturing a city, since they both seem to have a good understanding of the game. OTOH I know that stealth aircraft (fighters and bombers, not that the AI ever builds SF) can be captured in my (unmodded) games. Which suggests either a bug, a dodgy installation of the game, or some extra variable that we're all overlooking so far.

Sorry, but I still didn't have the tech to build one.

I uninstalled and reinstalled the game last night (this is the 3rd time). Still SB are destroyed. Could you post a save?

	16-09-2002 23:56									#34
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I don't think that anybody disagrees that you must at a least have the technolgy to capture a device. The only thing hanging is even with it can you capture a stl bomber? Some are saying they have and that may be the final answer.

I do wish someone from Firaxis would chim in here... before we move on to page 3.

	17-09-2002 00:25									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 Sorry, but I still didn't have the tech to build one. I uninstalled and reinstalled the game last night (this is the 3rd time). Still SB are destroyed. Could you post a save?

Mysterious.

Attached is a zip file with two scenario bics. In each game, the entire map consists of a very small square island. The human, playing as Rome, starts off with 3 cities and six modern armor. The AI (just to the north) starts off with one city -- in the city is a spearman, a bomber, a jet fighter, 2 stealth bombers and 2 stealth fighters. Each civ starts off with a bunch of gold. Each starts off in Monarchy or some other advanced government. The AI Egyptians start out with all techs discovered. The human Romans start out with (1) all techs up to stealth, in one bic, and (2) all techs, in the other bic.

I played the opening two turns of each scenario several times, each time with preserve random seed off, and with all unit animations on. My opening moves were to: (1) fortify all units; (2) move one MA into Egyptian territory; (3) contact the spearman in Thebes; (4) just click on "That's all Cleopatra" without concluding any deal; (5) move MA back out of Thebes territory; (6) end turn; (7) establish embassy (to see the units in Thebes); and (8) attack with an MA. (In each case, Cleo seems to have disbanded the spearman and rushed a rifleman, or upgraded the spearman into a rifleman).

In each test case: (1) using the scenario bic in which the human hasn't discovered Stealth, all planes are destroyed; and (2) using the scenario bic in which the human has discovered Stealth, the regular bomber and jet fighter are destroyed but the 2 SBs and 2 SFs are captured.

(On a side note, in the "human has all techs" version, the second turn produces a "We want to improve your palace" while the "human behind in techs" version no palace improvement is offered - tech advancement as one of many other triggers on spontaneous palace imrpovements?)

Catt

	17-09-2002 00:36									#36
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I wonder if there only having one city has created a situation that is not handled properly. IOW that ends the game as no civs are left, or atleast it will have to create or revive the end civ. If they had 2 or 3 cities, it would not go into the end of civ?

	17-09-2002 00:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I wonder if there only having one city has created a situation that is not handled properly. IOW that ends the game as no civs are left, or atleast it will have to create or revive the end civ. If they had 2 or 3 cities, it would not go into the end of civ?

I suppose it's possible, but note that in each test case it is the sole city - the only difference is the tech devlopment of the human player. It would probably be easy for someone to modify the bics to add another city or two -- I did the tests just to confirm for myself that my own memory wasn't playing tricks on me.

I used to play with diplo, cultural and SS victories turned off and so engaged in a lot of modern warfare with all the modern toys, and I remember capturing SBs and SFs pretty often - but, like you, have never seen or heard of a non-stealth plane, or any ship for that matter, being captured rather than destroyed. I've been playing with all victory conditions 'on' for some time now, and it's been months since I last saw stealth technologies in the game, so I really just wanted to be certain that capturing stealth planes was in fact possible.

Catt

	17-09-2002 00:56									#38
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Well I am not a user of the editor so I do not know about the ins and outs only what I have read.
The first thing I saw when I loaded the map was a warning about the rules being changed, which was what I postulated in the first place. I edit it and change one city from Rome to the AI. I sent a tank to the captiol and attacked and the game crashed back to the desktop.
The thing is that all of the people swearing that they have std games and captured the stl bomber have made me doubt my own experiences, namely that I had never seen that and had seen them destroyed and low and behold the map is played with non std rules. Not saying you are doing this Catt, but some people use non std so much they forget they are not using the regular rules.

	17-09-2002 02:48									#39
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well I am not a user of the editor so I do not know about the ins and outs only what I have read. The first thing I saw when I loaded the map was a warning about the rules being changed, which was what I postulated in the first place. I edit it and change one city from Rome to the AI. I sent a tank to the captiol and attacked and the game crashed back to the desktop. The thing is that all of the people swearing that they have std games and captured the stl bomber have made me doubt my own experiences, namely that I had never seen that and had seen them destroyed and low and behold the map is played with non std rules. Not saying you are doing this Catt, but some people use non std so much they forget they are not using the regular rules.

Any scenario that starts a player off with units and/or technologies will give the "rules have been modified" warning upon loading it -- this is true regardless of the nature of the rule changes. By attaching the bic files (rather than saved games employing the bic files) I was trying to allow everyone to see the rule changes made in creating the scenario. The alternative to creating a scenario that starts with access to SBs and SFs in 4000 BC is to play an unmodded game all the way until the modern age with Diplo, Cultural and SS victories turned off, and then run the tests both before and after the discovery of Stealth (making sure in each case that the AI has both discovered Stealth and built some stealth planes and located them in a vulnerable city) -- no thanks on that time commitment.

The point I was trying to get across is that in otherwise identical circumstances, with the only difference being the technological development level of the human ("capturing") player, the outcome (capture or destroy SBs and SFs) is different. This fact, combined with the manual's explanation (although only referring directly to artillery units) that units with A/D of 0/0 are either captured or destroyed depending on the "capturer's" technological development level, would seem to me to make a decent case that SBs and SFs are captured if you have discovered Stealth and destroyed if you haven't.

Catt

	17-09-2002 02:54									#40
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Like I said many times I understand your point. The only question is if it correct or not. Now it is not correct that you get the rules changed when you place things. I am trying it now with the small isle with 3 cities and and island with 1. Each civ has 2 cities and I gave a stl bomber to player 2. I did not get any msg. Another thing I just saw is they can use the bomber as they just bombed me with it and I doubt they have learn the tech as it is 1990bc. I am running up the tech tree and when I get to that tech we shall see what happens and that will be the end of it.

	17-09-2002 03:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 . . . . we shall see what happens and that will be the end of it.

I doubt it

Someone else will come up with a theory that explains away all the previous tests, so that there will need to be another round of testing; and another; and another . . . .

	17-09-2002 06:05									#42
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Sorry I had to go to the docs. Bad news, when I got the tech and captured the city (either one) the bomber was gone. The bum sold it off. Two things I did see 1- they can use them without the tech and you can not buil them without the resources.
One more thing is that you can add units or cities to a map and not get any msg about the rules not being std. This is because I did not change any rules.

	17-09-2002 07:37									#43
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Ok, I give up. I tried any number of things and could not reproduce a scenario that let a SB even be in the city when it was captued. Ran through the tech tree and gave all the techs to AI. Put a SB in a city and gave the city to AI, no good the unit goes back to the captiol. You can not give a unit even as part of the city. I tried given the techs and leaving a city with the SB and no troops and decalred war. The AI never even sent a unit to capture the city. I figure it was afraid of the bomber so I moved it out, figuring when they send a unit I will put the SB back for them, never came.

	17-09-2002 12:04									#44
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This topic were recently discussed in this thread

Please note the test results from vulture:

quote: Units destroyed: fighter bomber jet fighter helicopter tactical nuke ICBM Units captured: catapult cannon artillery radar artillery cruise missile stealth fighter stealth bomber

	17-09-2002 14:06									#45
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Ok, I give up. I tried any number of things and could not reproduce a scenario that let a SB even be in the city when it was captued. Ran through the tech tree and gave all the techs to AI. Put a SB in a city and gave the city to AI, no good the unit goes back to the captiol. You can not give a unit even as part of the city. I tried given the techs and leaving a city with the SB and no troops and decalred war. The AI never even sent a unit to capture the city. I figure it was afraid of the bomber so I moved it out, figuring when they send a unit I will put the SB back for them, never came.

That seems like a rather complex way of doing it. Why not just create an AI city (or several) with all different aircraft in it, give yourself a pile of MA next to each one, load up the game, and then just attack each city? You have to make sure that the cities are large enough/have culture so that they are not destroyed (nothing apart from ground artillery gets captured if the city is razed of course - btw what happens in the game if you abandon a city with aircraft in it? I've never tried (for obvious reasons)). You can do all of this on your first turn since you can put your MA right next to the AI cities (but it'll ruin your reputation ) so that the AI doesn't have time to move or sell any units. You can also give it a huge pile of gold so that it doesn't need to sell anything yet.

	17-09-2002 14:13									#46
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 One more thing is that you can add units or cities to a map and not get any msg about the rules not being std. This is because I did not change any rules.

My tests were definitely done with a standard bic, because I make a point of not changing the default bic that comes with the game. Even the mod I normally use (which just has more city names and changes a few spellings) gets a seperate bic file and has to be loaded as a scenario every time. Anyway, when I loaded th test bic (default rules plus map) I didn't get any 'non-standard rules' warning AFAIR. Will post it if you are interested.

	17-09-2002 19:00									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Somebody from Firaxis could enlighten us on this one.

Of all the time I have been here, I notice that Firaxian won't come when we need them. I guess they just refuse to be summoned by us. Therefore, my prediction is that they won't come to this thread.

PS: After having said that, they would post in this thread to prove me wrong, but then again, I'm just a pebble of sand under their feet. I'm not that important for them notice.

	17-09-2002 19:09									#48
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger PS: After having said that, they would post in this thread to prove me wrong, but then again, I'm just a pebble of sand under their feet. I'm not that important for them notice.

I'm sure that if they will ever post in this thread, it will be for the sole purpose of proving that you are wrong. For you, it's a win-win situation: either you are right and they won't post or they will post and we got you to thank for it.

	17-09-2002 19:11									#49
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I don't think we need firaxis on this one. We have pretty much figured out most of it ourself already. Besides, if they could be summoned to answer our smallest questions then this forum would be a lot more quiet

	17-09-2002 20:45									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Mysterious. Attached is a zip file with two scenario bics. In each game, the entire map consists of a very small square island. The human, playing as Rome, starts off with 3 cities and six modern armor. The AI (just to the north) starts off with one city -- in the city is a spearman, a bomber, a jet fighter, 2 stealth bombers and 2 stealth fighters. Each civ starts off with a bunch of gold. Each starts off in Monarchy or some other advanced government. The AI Egyptians start out with all techs discovered. The human Romans start out with (1) all techs up to stealth, in one bic, and (2) all techs, in the other bic. I played the opening two turns of each scenario several times, each time with preserve random seed off, and with all unit animations on. My opening moves were to: (1) fortify all units; (2) move one MA into Egyptian territory; (3) contact the spearman in Thebes; (4) just click on "That's all Cleopatra" without concluding any deal; (5) move MA back out of Thebes territory; (6) end turn; (7) establish embassy (to see the units in Thebes); and (8) attack with an MA. (In each case, Cleo seems to have disbanded the spearman and rushed a rifleman, or upgraded the spearman into a rifleman). In each test case: (1) using the scenario bic in which the human hasn't discovered Stealth, all planes are destroyed; and (2) using the scenario bic in which the human has discovered Stealth, the regular bomber and jet fighter are destroyed but the 2 SBs and 2 SFs are captured. (On a side note, in the "human has all techs" version, the second turn produces a "We want to improve your palace" while the "human behind in techs" version no palace improvement is offered - tech advancement as one of many other triggers on spontaneous palace imrpovements?) Catt

The SB and SF were destroyed in both case. You edited the rules so there must be somthing wrong with the bic file. Either that or you didn't place the needed resources.

Post a save.

	17-09-2002 20:53									#51
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quote: Originally posted by vulture That seems like a rather complex way of doing it. Why not just create an AI city (or several) with all different aircraft in it, give yourself a pile of MA next to each one, load up the game, and then just attack each city? You have to make sure that the cities are large enough/have culture so that they are not destroyed (nothing apart from ground artillery gets captured if the city is razed of course - btw what happens in the game if you abandon a city with aircraft in it? I've never tried (for obvious reasons)). You can do all of this on your first turn since you can put your MA right next to the AI cities (but it'll ruin your reputation ) so that the AI doesn't have time to move or sell any units. You can also give it a huge pile of gold so that it doesn't need to sell anything yet.

Because it is agreed that if you do not have the required tech you can not capture anything. In order to have the tech on the first turn, I would have to change the rules. The save from Catt crashed so I do not know if it works even with a modified rule set.

	17-09-2002 20:59									#52
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bongo. all of that was noted and the only thing in doubt by some is the capture of the stl bomber. The list may be completely accurate, but a few have not been able to observe the SB being captured. AFAIK the rules disalllow capture of any aircraft. I could be confused, but I thought I have met all of the conditions and the SB was destroyed, so I could be wrong, that is what the hullabaloo is about.

	17-09-2002 21:25									#53
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Because it is agreed that if you do not have the required tech you can not capture anything. In order to have the tech on the first turn, I would have to change the rules. The save from Catt crashed so I do not know if it works even with a modified rule set.

Giving techs to players in a scenario isn't part of the rules. In the editor (at least on my machine) there are flags (on pull down menus) for 'custom rules' and 'custom player properties' (or something like that). You can give various techs to the civs in the player properties interface without ever changing the rules (the 'custom rules' flag remains unticked). You can *also* give techs out in the rules section, but that will give the 'rules have been changed' message, while doing in the player properties interface wont.

	17-09-2002 22:58									#54
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Ok, thanks. I still wanted to get them without that, if I could as if I give them and it still does not capture, I would have had that doubt. It only take a few mintues to run up the tech tree, since little happens. I am not moving any units or doing any building. I may give that a shot, but Thrawn05 has already use Catts map with the done and the planes were not captured.

	17-09-2002 23:43									#55
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Now it is not correct that you get the rules changed when you place things.

You're right - I recreated the test with vulture's advice to use only the player properties, it worked fine (without the rules warning).

quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 The SB and SF were destroyed in both case. You edited the rules so there must be somthing wrong with the bic file. Either that or you didn't place the needed resources. Post a save.

Strange - on my machine the SBs and SFs were destroyed without the tech, and captured with the tech. Same thing with my revised test scenarios. I can't post a save because I have no saved games where I even ever get to Stealth technology.

Now, trying for a second time, here is more or less the same test scenario, but with careful modding so as only to place cities and units - no rule changes whatsoever (and I didn't get the "rules have been modified" warning) -- I gave the Egyptians two cities and riflemen instead of spearmen. I attacked Thebes on turn two (after establishing an embassy to see the garrisoned planes were still there. Taking the same opening moves as I posted with the original test scenarios (and obviously using the Load Scenario button to launch the game), I capture the stealth planes when Rome already has discovered Stealth and destroy them when Rome hasn't discovered Stealth.

Catt

	18-09-2002 02:10									#56
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Ok, I that worked and ends it for me thanks.