15-09-2002 23:59									#1
	AI attacking without declaring War Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Can the AI attack you without having to declear war?

In my current game I just made Peace with China. As soons as I end my turn however their units start hitting me with no mention of a sneak attack or decleration of war...

Is that a bug, or is it a "feature"?

-Alech

	16-09-2002 00:07									#2
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Here is the Save-game btw:

http://home.online.no/~albraate/Cae...ns, 1848 AD.SAV

	16-09-2002 00:35									#3
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I don't have enough evidence to back anything up, but I do remember an instance where this happened. No declaration, no nothing. It also occured shortly after a peace treaty.

	16-09-2002 01:09									#4
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same here, i had just made peace with the indians, so i came out of mobilization but i was still at war with the iroquoi
eventually i made peace with them and noticed i still had a lot of unhappy people then found out i was at war with india!

At the time i assumed they had declared war and i hadnt noticed, but i normally do notice these things...
i dont have a save

	16-09-2002 01:56									#5
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quote: Can the AI attack you without having to declear war?

Yes it can, and it does so quite often (at least in my games.) It does hurt the reputation of the attacking civ, human or AI but there are times when a preemptive strike is worth the loss of reputation.

	16-09-2002 02:21									#6
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miccofl: Any it does this without you getting a pop-up informing you that they just attacked you?

	16-09-2002 02:36									#7
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Must be a bug, not a feature. It has happened to me as well, several times.. suddenly I realize that I'm at war, but there was no message that "The Romans have declared war on us!". Only happened since last patch.

	16-09-2002 03:28									#8
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Yes, I've noticed this bug, along with an AI vs. AI non-declaration bug. I believe that they actually are declaring war, and that for whatever reason you are not informed. The best example I've seen is when two AIs sign a military alliance, but the civ who is signing on doesn't officially declare war. They still attack the enemy and everything, it's just that if you look on the foreign advisor screen, the red line isn't there. And I know for a fact that this unofficial declaration comes with most of the same effects (I cant testify to every single one, of course) as normal war, as observed in a recent game. America and Persia had a trade embargo against me with about ten turns left in it when the Indians roped America into a military alliance against Persia. Although the foreign advisor did not officially inform me that America had declared war, but he did tell me that the trade embargo had ended. I've only seen this sort of thing since 1.29 came out. Annoying, but if it's not happening to you it really has no effect on the game.

	16-09-2002 03:52									#9
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by: Akaoz miccofl: Any it does this without you getting a pop-up informing you that they just attacked you?

The time that puzzled me the most was when a unit I had told to get out or declare war (and didn't leave) went by one of my tanks, which then blasted away at it! (ZOC) I'm guessing that it declared war when I told it to. Usually when it happens a unit just comes up to one of mine and attacks it, sometimes this is not visible - you can hear an attack, but the map is still showing the view from when the turn ended. You sit and wonder WTF was that all about...

	16-09-2002 04:06									#10
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Well, if you tell them to get out or declare war, and they don't get out, it means they have declared war.

	16-09-2002 04:21									#11
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quote: Originally posted by: cyclotron7 Well, if you tell them to get out or declare war, and they don't get out, it means they have declared war.

I must disagree with that. Sometimes you have to tell them to get out repeatedly before they will finally "leave or declare war." And the AI will never leave the first time you ask.

	16-09-2002 04:45									#12
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quote: Originally posted by miccofl I must disagree with that. Sometimes you have to tell them to get out repeatedly before they will finally "leave or declare war." And the AI will never leave the first time you ask.

I believe cyclotron was talking about the diplomatic option that reads "Remove your forces from our territory or declare WAR!" If you select this and the units are not removed, then you know that the AI civ has chosen to go to war.

	16-09-2002 05:14									#13
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Precisely, KoH. Allow me to quote myself:

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Well, if you tell them to get out or declare war, and they don't get out, it means they have declared war.

	16-09-2002 05:26									#14
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Maybe I am asleep at times, but I have discovered I was at war with some civ and never knew it. They asked for peace and I was unaware I was at war with them. This happens occassionally when that civ is very small or is far away.

	16-09-2002 18:17									#15
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Well, if you tell them to get out or declare war, and they don't get out, it means they have declared war.

Sorry guys, I still have to say "not always." Regardless of which one of us is right or wrong, the game is still supposed to generate a pop-up "The xciv has declared war" or something similar. The pop-up used to occur every time war was declared this way, it no longer does.

	16-09-2002 18:34									#16
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I can support this, i was attacked by the English (submarine killed a transport ferrying wounded troops..the cowards) with no warning, then they offered peace?? the text box seemed to suggest a rienforcement of the existing peace treaty.

As for 'remove your forces or declare war' i have had the AI wander into my ZOC several times and not leave after i have warned them, and we aren't at war nor do they decalre war they usually leave after the 2nd warning?

	16-09-2002 22:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by miccofl Sorry guys, I still have to say "not always." Regardless of which one of us is right or wrong, the game is still supposed to generate a pop-up "The xciv has declared war" or something similar. The pop-up used to occur every time war was declared this way, it no longer does.

Pop-ups or not, when another civ refuses this request you are at war. That's probably because you told them "get out or declare war," so if they don't get out, they declare war. I don't know why the pop-ups aren't showing for you, but you will still be at war. Post a save?

	17-09-2002 05:10									#18
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Post a save?

Were it not for the fact the scenario was a 16.5 MB download I would gladly post that save, but given the current bandwidth consumption of the scenario download I cannot afford the BW required to host a second file of that size.