16-09-2002 11:04									#31
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TRASH IT!! DOWN WITH ELECTIONS!!!

	16-09-2002 11:05									#32
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quote: Is that from the Federalist Papers? The ones written partly by people involved in the Alien and Sedition Acts?

I wasn't aware that Jefferson and Jay were in the government when the Alien and Sedition Acts were written into law. Oh right, because they were on the other side.

--

And keep the Electoral College. It is a fallacy that the President represents the people. The President represents the United States of America, it is just that the people vote for him .

	16-09-2002 11:08									#33
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While I don't enjoy voting for a Republican in a presidential election knowing damn well that my vote is meaningless because the Democrats will steal the election in Chicago... it's the way it is.

I always love to listen to people whine that Bush lost the popular election... WHAT POPULAR ELECTION... there is no such thing in this country...

We don't have to listen to people whine that if some other country had an Electoral system, it would have changed the results... so why should we have to listen to that crap.

The Electoral System IS the system we use here... it's that simple. Candidates know they have to win under THESE rules to win. If they don't, they lose. The popular vote is MEANINGLESS in our system.

So stop whining that Bush lost the popular election, there is no such thing here. But feel free to complain about all the other crap about our last election. There is more than enough other stuff to argue and complain about.

	16-09-2002 11:24									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Is that from the Federalist Papers? The ones written partly by people involved in the Alien and Sedition Acts? I wasn't aware that Jefferson and Jay were in the government when the Alien and Sedition Acts were written into law. Oh right, because they were on the other side.

Jefferson was NOT an author of the Federalist papers. Madison was. Hamilton was. Yes John Jay was also.

quote: And keep the Electoral College. It is a fallacy that the President represents the people. The President represents the United States of America, it is just that the people vote for him .

Some fallacy. The United States is supposed to be government by the People. In your version the individual states are more important than the inhabitants of the US.

I still haven't seen any of you Electoral College apologists show why the people of Wyoming are derseving of 3.8 times the voting power of the people of California. Or Texas for that matter. I haven't checked that one but it must be similar. Maybe the people of Wyoming are only three times as good as Texans.

	16-09-2002 11:32									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I always love to listen to people whine that Bush lost the popular election... WHAT POPULAR ELECTION... there is no such thing in this country...

That is the point of the thread Ming.

quote: We don't have to listen to people whine that if some other country had an Electoral system, it would have changed the results... so why should we have to listen to that crap.

You don't have to listen. You can close the thread.

I am not whining. I didn't want either of them.

quote: The Electoral System IS the system we use here... it's that simple. Candidates know they have to win under THESE rules to win. If they don't, they lose. The popular vote is MEANINGLESS in our system.

Yes it is. Its about time that changed.

quote: So stop whining that Bush lost the popular election, there is no such thing here. But feel free to complain about all the other crap about our last election. There is more than enough other stuff to argue and complain about.

Who was whining about Bush? I am complaining about the injustice of the inhabitants of small states having more voting power than those in large state which is entirely do to the way the Electoral College is set up.

So, Ming, why is an inhabitant of Wyoming deserving of a bigger vote than you have? You need to do something about you level of self-esteem.

	16-09-2002 11:38									#36
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quote: Jefferson was NOT an author of the Federalist papers. Madison was. Hamilton was. Yes John Jay was also.

Madison was a Jeffersonian. Except for being the scribe of the Constitution, he is known for backing everything Jefferson did .

quote: Some fallacy. The United States is supposed to be government by the People. In your version the individual states are more important than the inhabitants of the US.

Um, that was the way it was supposed to be.

quote: I still haven't seen any of you Electoral College apologists show why the people of Wyoming are derseving of 3.8 times the voting power of the people of California. Or Texas for that matter. I haven't checked that one but it must be similar. Maybe the people of Wyoming are only three times as good as Texans.

I just did. States were meant to have power in the system. Most of it has been taken away, but the EC still gives the states some semblence of power, as miniscule as it may be.

	16-09-2002 11:43									#37
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The states were supposed to be more important than the inhabitants of the U.S. as far as the federal government was concerned, but the individual states were subject to the people. Each state's constitution was in effect a defense against tyranny. It was on a state level that it was really a government by the people, for the people, etc. so on and so forth. Of course, the federal Constitution did set parameters that were supposed to be upheld in all of the territories inside of the union of states.

	16-09-2002 11:45									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Madison was a Jeffersonian. Except for being the scribe of the Constitution, he is known for backing everything Jefferson did .

Not the other way around. Jefferson was very much against the Alien and Sedition acts which Madison signed into law.

quote: Um, that was the way it was supposed to be.

Kind of like European nations then where the inhabitants exist at the will of the state. Was that what the Founders had in mind? I don't think so. It was a compromise at a time when some of the states still thought of the State as the repository of politcal power instead of the individual.

quote: I just did. States were meant to have power in the system. Most of it has been taken away, but the EC still gives the states some semblence of power, as miniscule as it may be.

No you haven't. You have not addressed the issue of voting power at all. States have plenty of power. Take a look at the Senate.

	16-09-2002 11:48									#39
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I think its actually rather interesting that the crafters of the 1787 Constitution took so many things into account. They even had a specific clause that prevented representatives from being detained on their way to a vote, which is very wise, but who would even think of such a circumstance?

All of that intelligent planning, and yet they never made provisions for perhaps the two most important issue that would have some of the greatest Constitutional effects.

1) The acquisition of new territory.

2) A clause regarding the right or the lack of the right for a state to secede from the Union.

Neither of these issues were ever addressed as amendments either. Rather, since they were never specifically written down, they were left largely as a matter of interpretation.

	16-09-2002 11:53									#40
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quote: Not the other way around. Jefferson was very much against the Alien and Sedition acts which Madison signed into law.

It is hard for Madison to sign it into law when they were signed into law by Adams and rescinded by Jefferson in 1800. Madison was elected President in 1808.

quote: Kind of like European nations then where the inhabitants exist at the will of the state. Was that what the Founders had in mind? I don't think so. It was a compromise at a time when some of the states still thought of the State as the repository of politcal power instead of the individual.

Um no. It wasn't a compromise. The founders were very very wary of democracy and wanted to temper that.

quote: No you haven't. You have not addressed the issue of voting power at all. States have plenty of power. Take a look at the Senate.

Yes I have. The states are supposed to have more people that the individuals within them. States have had their power chipped away. The Senate was originally elected by State Legislatures. The HOUSE was the place where the people could have their power in a democratic fashion.

	16-09-2002 11:59									#41
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Bah, I think that popular election of Senators was better anyway.

Besides, there are far bigger usurptions (is that a word?) of state power. Just look at all of the added federal bureaucracy not to mention the laws that the federal government has imposed on the individual states to accept.

Just look at a few! : the drinking age, drug laws, abolition...

	16-09-2002 12:01									#42
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Oh, I agree Dom. I think the states should have much more expanded powers, not have the power that they have left being taken away.

Anyway, it'll be IMPOSSIBLE to abolish the Electoral College, so why it is even being discussed is silly.

	16-09-2002 12:23									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Anyway, it'll be IMPOSSIBLE to abolish the Electoral College, so why it is even being discussed is silly.

While not "IMPOSSIBLE" in theory... I would have to agree.

And it is silly... It's the way things are... That's the rule presidential candidates have to win by... the popular vote is just that... popular, but meaningless.

That's not how we do things here.

	16-09-2002 13:04									#44
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The only problem with a proportional system is it allows extremist parties to gain a firmer footing.

I can see both sides of the argument here - it isn't fair that rural votes are worth more than urban ones. But then if they have very few votes, politicians will completely ignore them.

Over here we have a first past the post system, like America - but the consituencies are far smaller - London is divided into several areas.

Oh, and for those who don't know UK politics -

Blue = Conservative (right-wing)
Red = Labour (supposedly neither)
Yellow = Liberal Democrats (leftist)
Green = Green
Orange = Scottish independant

(and looking at this map, it seems Scotland and Wales have a better idea than us )

	16-09-2002 13:05									#45
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oops

Attachment: politicalmapofbritain.jpg
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).

	16-09-2002 13:10									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It is hard for Madison to sign it into law when they were signed into law by Adams and rescinded by Jefferson in 1800. Madison was elected President in 1808.

Oops. I should looked that up too.

quote: Um no. It wasn't a compromise. The founders were very very wary of democracy and wanted to temper that.

Nope that one I stick with. It was at least partly a compromise between the large and small states. Its the same exact compromize as was made for the creation of two houses of Congress. The founders were not all that wary of Democracy although that may have been involved in the 12 Amendment which was written after the French Revolution. After all the states were run democraticaly. Well there have been some exceptions over the years like the Daley machine in Chicago and Kingfish Long in Lousiana.

quote: Yes I have. The states are supposed to have more people that the individuals within them. States have had their power chipped away. The Senate was originally elected by State Legislatures. The HOUSE was the place where the people could have their power in a democratic fashion.

"States are supposed to have more people than the individuals within"

Well they don't so thats crap and nothing else.

The States STILL have two Senators each giving ALL the states equal power in the Senate. That the Senate is now popularly elected is good. The States are part of a Nation and they are not sovereign states, most of them never were sovereign for even an instant.

	16-09-2002 13:14									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Anyway, it'll be IMPOSSIBLE to abolish the Electoral College, so why it is even being discussed is silly.

You have heard of Amendments haven't you? You know those things in the Constitution where it was changed.

It would be difficult but amending the Constitution has always been difficult. Nevertheless the Electoral College system HAS been changed by the 12th Amendment so there is even a precedent for change on it.

George Bush is in the perfect position to get rid of the dinosaur.

	16-09-2002 13:18									#48
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EDIT- I am referring to teh map posted by Redjohn


As there is no indication of the population covered by the parties this is pretty meaningless

	16-09-2002 13:29									#49
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger EDIT- I am referring to teh map posted by Redjohn As there is no indication of the population covered by the parties this is pretty meaningless

Well I know where the population centres are

	16-09-2002 13:33									#50
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Well I know where the population centres are

I do too, but non natives think everyone lives in London
or in a little village with thatched cottages and ponds with ducks.

	16-09-2002 13:37									#51
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I do too, but non natives think everyone lives in London or in a little village with thatched cottages and ponds with ducks.

Don't be silly, about 3 people live in Oxford - there's a university there ya know

	16-09-2002 13:48									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred The States are part of a Nation and they are not sovereign states, most of them never were sovereign for even an instant.

Once we defeated the British. The British crown recongized each former colony as a sovereign state. The United States as we think of it today, did not exist at the time. First there was the Articles of Confederation (which failed). Then the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution as we know it today.

	16-09-2002 13:55									#53
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quote: Once we defeated the British. The British crown recongized each former colony as a sovereign state.

Yeah all THIRTEEN of them. You can add in Texas for fouteen. Out of FIFTY. I did say most. I did it quite deliberatly. Even those fourteen gave up sovereignty when they became part of the nation.

	16-09-2002 14:15									#54
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I stand corrected (except that some of those states, when they ratified the Constitution, specifically stated that they reserve the right to secede from the union - some of them northern states). Mainly because that what they were trying was new to them.

As to the question of abolishing the Electorial College. You stated in one of your previous post that the:

Population of California in 2000 33,871,648

Population of Wyoming in 2000 493,782

Electoral vote per person

California 1.59425369559815926287377573125465e-6

Wyoming 6.07555560956049430720439384181683e-6

My question is this (I'm not trying to be a smart ass): How much of that population figure you quoted were citizens or naturalized citizens of the United States?

	16-09-2002 14:52									#55
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It doesn't matter. The census and representation is soley based on the number of people in the state at the time of the Census. Now that slaves don't count anyway. Its in the Constitution that way.

Now its highly likely that the percentage of non-citizens is higher in California than in Wyoming BUT its not going to make up for 3.8 to one. That would require there to be far more non-citizens than citizens in California. Its not that bad. Nowhere near it.

I wouldn't mind if that was changed as well.

	16-09-2002 14:56									#56
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I'm glad that your state is doing a good job on the census. In my state some of the illegals do get counted on the census and some of them do vote.

By the way what did you mean by: I wouldn't mind if that was changed as well.

	16-09-2002 15:44									#57
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quote: I'm glad that your state is doing a good job on the census.

My state or your state its done by the Feds not the state.

quote: In my state some of the illegals do get counted on the census and some of them do vote.

They are ALL supposed to be counted. EVERY SINGLE PERSON, legal, ilegal, or in jail. Every one is to be counted, even the homeless.

Only the citizens are supposed to vote. I doubt that many non-citizens are voting in any state. A few here and there I suppose. Less than the number of dead that vote in general but I am just guessing on the number of dead that vote these days. Its kind of frowned on. Ask Ming about dead voters. I think it was pretty popular in Chicago at one time and there are rumors about LBJ in Texas, not his elections but in some that he was involved in early on in his career.

quote: By the way what did you mean by: I wouldn't mind if that was changed as well.

I wouldn't mind if voting only took citizens into account. At present its everone and its that way in every state. An ammendment to the Constitution would be needed to change it. It makes sense for the Census to count everyone. A lot of budgeting depends on that but it gives states with a lot of non-citizens disproportionate representation. That means the citizens in New York, California, probably Texas and Florida have more votes than some of the other large states in comparison to the number of actualy citizens.

	16-09-2002 15:52									#58
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True enough. Speaking of dead voters. What do you think about dead politicians being eleted and their post being handed off to their spouse or other family member.

	16-09-2002 16:09									#59
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That is kind of rare. It happens though. Usually when the other candidate is so unpopular that a dead man can beat them and the spouse has been active enough the Governor of the State in question thinks she or he will do the job well enough.

Someone has to take over. At least the spouse will know what the agenda was. Its a bad situation all around no matter who replaces the dead candidate.

	16-09-2002 16:13									#60
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To quote a quote: "Everybody has an agenda, everybody"