17-09-2002 02:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin I actually suggested a set of flag rules in the thread "Rasbey's flag initiative" with arguements why the rules should be like that. I know it's fairly long, but it explains the dilemmas with approving flags (the Iroquis flag is mentioned ).

That was an excellent post, Rasbelin!
(With the exception that you listed the Iroquois as a minority group. While most northern Amerind tribes are, the Iroquois are not. The Confederacy is and has aways been independent. Its relation to the US and Canada could be compared to that of Monaco to France (only the Iroquois have more land but no Prince ). But no more about them in particular for now, let's talk rules.)
Gangerolf, I'm all for being generous but PC should not be a consideration. Only offensive flags should be ruled out (which is not the same as enemy flags) . But if we want the flags to have some meaning to the community, there shouldn't be too many either or we end up with just a second avatar.
Would it be an idea to have subforums for any flag with eg 20 or more active followers?

	17-09-2002 03:12									#32
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Nunavut

Don't forget about the autonomous Inuit territory in Canada.

	17-09-2002 05:08									#33
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Ingushetia's flag is outstanding.

Beyond that, this thread seems pretty crazy to me, Rasbelin.

In the end, somebody from one of these places can always make the flag their avatar if they care enough (and have 500 posts).

	17-09-2002 05:46									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah (With the exception that you listed the Iroquois as a minority group. While most northern Amerind tribes are, the Iroquois are not. The Confederacy is and has aways been independent. Its relation to the US and Canada could be compared to that of Monaco to France (only the Iroquois have more land but no Prince).

I admit that I should perhaps have been more precise about the Iroquis, but I guess I just wanted to speak of them like a minority as most would do.

quote: Gangerolf, I'm all for being generous but PC should not be a consideration. Only offensive flags should be ruled out (which is not the same as enemy flags) .

I don't know if his proposal in general should be taken too serious if he wants to have 1000 flags. But I think there has to be some rules, so I do suggest the exclusion of historical flags and in general following the rules I previously suggested, but as the whole flag issue seems to be a big question mark right now, I don't have any improvement suggestions right now.

quote: Would it be an idea to have subforums for any flag with eg 20 or more active followers?

Interestin idea, but I guess that would only split the Apolytoners too much. I'll wait for at least some response from Markos or Dan, before I suggest anything too radical.

	17-09-2002 06:13									#35
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quote: Originally posted by MattyBoy In the end, somebody from one of these places can always make the flag their avatar if they care enough (and have 500 posts).

That might be the case, but where to but the avatar then?

	17-09-2002 07:09									#36
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I'd much rather see the flags for the 50 US states added than a bunch of Russian autonomous regions that no one would ever use. Just my two cents...

	17-09-2002 07:15									#37
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There's just the difference that the 50 states aren't autonomous or indepedent. And it's more of a principle issue now.

	17-09-2002 07:19									#38
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I don't see how you can really consider the Russian regions to be independent. Just because they have "autonomous" in their names doesn't mean that they really are.

Plus, as someone mentioned earlier, England, Scotland, Wales and all the rest of the British flags represent non-autonomous regions. I obviously don't have any problems with them...

	17-09-2002 13:26									#39
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quote: I don't know if his proposal in general should be taken too serious if he wants to have 1000 flags.

I'm serious. 1000 is a bit exagerated, but I don't think we'll have any problems getting 300 flags. I'm interested in flags, and want as many as possible

quote: Gangerolf, I'm all for being generous but PC should not be a consideration. Only offensive flags should be ruled out (which is not the same as enemy flags) . But if we want the flags to have some meaning to the community, there shouldn't be too many either or we end up with just a second avatar.

Personally, I don't care about PC. What's an offensive flag and what's an enemy flag?
Nazi/Commie flags may be offensive to some. Some people would say the Israeli flag is offensive, others may be offended by the Palestinian flag.
If Al-Qaida has a flag, is this offensive (thus ruled out) or an enemy flag (keep it)?

	17-09-2002 14:50									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I don't see how you can really consider the Russian regions to be independent. Just because they have "autonomous" in their names doesn't mean that they really are.

You don't seem to know anything about them. First of all they do have a good deal of power when it comes to determing about the issues related to the territory. The differencies between the republics are quite large because of this. I.e. Ingushetia is one of the poorest after the war in Chechnya, while Bashkortostan is much wealthier because of the oil. And this is also reflected by how the local governments act. Of course Moscow does have a certain power, but when it comes to local issues, Moscow is still distant.

	17-09-2002 17:26									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Nazi/Commie flags may be offensive to some. Some people would say the Israeli flag is offensive, others may be offended by the Palestinian flag. If Al-Qaida has a flag, is this offensive (thus ruled out) or an enemy flag (keep it)?

A flag is offensive if the image is, not because it happens to be the flag of some country you don't like.
Might still make you have unpleasant thoughts, but that's not the flag's fault. All countries have done good and bad things in their history.

An example of an offensive flag would be a flag depicting someone being killed or raped.

The Nazi flag should probably be ruled offensive because the symbol on it was and is specifically used as a symbol by those committing or advocating atrocities. If it was merely a flag that used to decorate command centers, be carried in battles etc., I would have no problem with it.

	17-09-2002 17:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah A flag is offensive if the image is, not because it happens to be the flag of some country you don't like.

That's correct. I recall this dilemma also from the discussion when people wanted to have the flag of Palestine included on Poly. I also gave an example of this problem in my original flag thread when I talked about the fact that the Greeks would see red, if we would have the flag of Northern Cyprus, so certain flags will be excluded anyway as Poly isn't democratic or use any common rules for the flags. This is the core problem with the flags.

quote: An example of an offensive flag would be a flag depicting someone being killed or raped.

I agree with that.

quote: The Nazi flag should probably be ruled offensive because the symbol on it was and is specifically used as a symbol by those committing or advocating atrocities. If it was merely a flag that used to decorate command centers, be carried in battles etc., I would have no problem with it.

Neither would I have any problem with it, but it would cause uprising among the Jewish Apolytoners, the Germans wouldn't perhaps be so pleased with it and in general it could cause some negative reactions-

	17-09-2002 19:21									#43
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The Nazis adopted a hebrew (also some Native American tribes) symbol of Death for their flag, the symbol with it's arms going in the opposite direction means life.

	17-09-2002 23:00									#44
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quote: Of course Moscow does have a certain power, but when it comes to local issues, Moscow is still distant.

Sounds like those Russian republics have about as much power granted to them as the US states do...

	17-09-2002 23:07									#45
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I don't confirm or deny that, because I'm not 100% sure. I just state that they are still autonomous, unlike the 50 states (compare them to the special rights of Midway, Wake Islands and the rest of the controlled territories in Oceania).

	17-09-2002 23:12									#46
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Anyway, I'm still awaiting for information from the bigshots about the flags I presented in the original starter posting of this thread.

Hey, bigshots!

	18-09-2002 02:07									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Level The Nazis adopted a hebrew (also some Native American tribes) symbol of Death for their flag, the symbol with it's arms going in the opposite direction means life.

Really? My history teacher told me that the swastika was orignally a variation on the Christian cross.

Unfortunatly, due to the Nazis, it has developed a bad reputation.....who knows, eventually it could be used for its original purpose (in another several 100 years )

	18-09-2002 02:16									#48
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I thought it was an old Indian (India) symbol of some kind.

	18-09-2002 02:31									#49
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quote: An example of an offensive flag would be a flag depicting someone being killed or raped.

Seen the South Park flag?
But I don't think any such flags exist in real life.

	18-09-2002 04:32									#50
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Actually, the swastika is/was the reversed buddhist symbol for peace.

And Rasbey, Texas used to be independent, so that's not exactly 'provincial'. Ever heard of the Lone Star Republic?

	18-09-2002 09:25									#51
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And the swastika can be seen on Greek amphoras, so it's not the issue that the swastika would cause hate, but the flag of the Reich is causing hate.

BTW, I received a message that admins will look into the issue with flags and The Poly Smiley Band later on.

	18-09-2002 13:38									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin BTW, I received a message that admins will look into the issue with flags and The Poly Smiley Band later on.

Yeah!! Does that mean I get retroactively unbanned?

	19-09-2002 09:17									#53
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Rasbelin:

Thank you for your proposed suggestions for new flags to be added to Apolyton's listing. After a careful review of your suggestions, and your references, we have decided not to accept any of your recommendations at this time.

First, the states of the Russian Federation: as you said, they are autonomous which is half-way between independence and full-blown inclusion in Russia -- not country status. Second, the tribes of the Finno-Ugric languages are not recognized nations. As for Somalia, which you cite, it is a country.

This thread, and public discussion on this matter for now, is closed.

----------------
Dan; Apolyton CS