16-09-2002 20:51									#1
	can't research my own techs Suffering from ads?

after a long time away, i fired up a new game of civ. this is my first time ever playing on a huge map wth all the civs. i started off trying to get techs as fast as i could, but before long realized that i was far behind everybody else (which i had alraedy anticipated). so i used the great library strategy and got the needed techs. i then concentrated on making as much dough as possible, setting the science to 0 and promoting one worker to scientist so i was still researching. i bought techs or got them through the great library until, unfortunately, i got education.

well, i guess i'm pretty bad at this game, because i wanted to start researching on my own, but didn't have enough money, even though that's supposed to be my big strategy. i could only set the science slider up to 30% before my income became negative. so i continued to buy techs. everybody (me and the other bigger powers) has just entered the indistrial era. my tech buying strategy was to scout around until i found a smaller, less powerful civ who would sell me techs (the real biggies aren't selling at all), and now rome is kind of my little trading buddy (i also use france, and get the cheap, non-essential techs from the really little guys).

IMO this is a very sound strategy, and i'm right there with everybody else, tech-wise. i've been able to complete some really nice wonders such as j.s. bach's and smith's trading. the problem is that i've hit this neverending circle where i buy an important tech off somebody for nearly all my gold, plus X gold per turn. this depletes my reserves and greatly reduces my income. it hasn't been too bad so far, but i'm at the point where i just bought theory of gravity for around 500, plus 62 per turn. i have a feeling it's gonna get ugly. so now, i still have the science set to 0 and am netting 200 gp per turn after the gold i pay to the other civs per turn for techs and resources. this seems to be a pretty constant income. as i build banks and marketplaces and increase in population, my income increases. as i need to pay more gold for good techs (and inflation on luxuries), it decreases. so the total amount is pretty steady.

i really want to get out of this gold-per-turn trap so i can buy techs for one big lump sum at a time, and someday actually use my income to research on my own. as far as i can see, my only option is to keep saving until i get out of debt to the other civs, and forego buying new techs. but then i'll be pretty far behind, and who knows if i'll ever get back on top again? industrialization is coming up, and i REEEALLY want factories (who wouldn't?).

the thing that's pissing me off the most is that i can't use my money to upgrade units or rush infrastructure - it's all used on techs. i really need some ideas. can anybody help?

here's my game:
egyptians, huge map, continents w/ medium water, temperate, normal dryness, old planet (few mountains), all random civs, sedentary barbarians, regent difficulty, all win options enabled. there are 2 continents. i'm on the huge continent along with the other big/powerful civs (and a couple dinky ones), on a peninsula (sp?), so i'm pretty isolated. the small continent has the really lame civs who i sometimes take pity on and give tech gifts to help them keep up. i'm not big or powerful, but my money is letting me keep up with the biggies. no one has messed with me so far, except the zulu, and i spanked them hard. i could withstand an invasion if the schmidt hit the fan, but it's SO not worth it for me to get in a war right now.

	16-09-2002 21:11									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What are you researching now, and what techs do the big boys have that you don't?

	17-09-2002 00:54									#3
	Breaking the cycle for this game Full PM-box? Change here!

I'd recommend starting a pre-build for Theory of Evolution, use it to get Atomic Theory -> Electronics, and selling those techs to turn the flow of cash around back to you.

	17-09-2002 01:18									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

could you post a save?

btw: doing some reasearch isn't bad at all, this way the tech you are currently researching will be cheaper to buy. So less money for the AI to spend on research himself (allthough you won't profit from it directly, it will hurt the AI).
As you said yourself, it is a never ending circle, this could be away to get out of it
hope this helps

	17-09-2002 03:12									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Also, don't underestimate the power of theft. This applies more in the Modern Era, where the AI starts asking for insane amounts of money for any and all techs you want, but it can be applicable in the late Industrial Era too. Example: Gahndi offers me Space Flight for World Map and 7,401 gold. I stole it Safely for 2,426. In other words, I could be almost guaranteed to get three techs for the price of one if I go through the less legitimate channels. It does have the downside that if you get caught, you may start a war, but no pain, no gain, right? And lastly, I realize this doesn't help much at the moment, as you're just struggling to keep your head above water, financially speaking. I'd definitely take jkelly's advice on this, get ToE (and make sure you get it!) and then pawn the resulting high-end techs for some serious cash. ToE can have that effect- it gets you right back in the game in more ways than one. That and the Great Library are my favorite wonders, hands down.

	17-09-2002 07:55									#6
	Re: Breaking the cycle for this game Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by jkelly I'd recommend starting a pre-build for Theory of Evolution, use it to get Atomic Theory -> Electronics, and selling those techs to turn the flow of cash around back to you.

Damn right. I liked your title, "Breaking the cycle..."

I'm feeling my way toward a strategy paradigm; in any given game, there are a few key possible levers towards dominance... one of the strongest is breaking out of the pack in tech. Others previously discussed have been aggression / oscillation, empire productivity, geopolitics, etc.

I like your phrase, though... my most enjoyable games have been where I have "broken one of the cycles."

	17-09-2002 08:04									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It seems the amount the AI wants is a function of how much you have. It will not ak for 7000 if you only 300. The more cash I have the higher the price goes. Anyway how do you get the point were the AI is ahead in tech when you are at space techs?

	17-09-2002 23:35									#8
	fantastic miracle - problem solved Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

a happy ending!!! (so far) i'm going to try to remember what happened last night, because it was pretty amazing.

ok, all the big powers were in the industrial era. at the time i was researching steam power, intending to rush to industrialization and then theory of everything. i had all the middle ages techs. i still had george, my one scientist, working on the research all by himself, and he was getting frustrated.

on a whim, i decided to go to the small fries and help them get out of the dark ages. the americans had a surprisingly good amount of gold, and i sold them a tech they didn't have. so did the indians! i did this with every single small nation, systematically. i also got as many luxuries as i could afford. at the same time i finished the building of built wall street and relocated my palace to the middle of my territory. these two factors boosted my income by quite a bit. most of my cities had all improvements at that point. i set the huge ones to building workers in anticipation of railroading, and set the rest to wealth.

suddenly, my citizens were all happy! they began throwing "we love the queen" parades in the streets. more importantly, FINALLY i had enough income to start investing into science. i raised it to 60%, and figured i was finally on track with everybody else, pretty much. well, somewhere in there some of my per-turn gold deals expired and i suddenly had a good income. i was finally able to set my science to 80-90%. i finished my workers and set those cities to wealth, and made the workers road and improve everything. (oh yeah, i should also mention that i'm placing a firm emphasis on production. my workers are fast, and i have a lot of them, which makes my military look stronger.)

by the time i got steam power, my income was 22/turn (as much as possible without going negative) and i wasn't paying per turn gold to any of the other civs for techs anymore. somehow, by some wonderful miracle, i was the only one who had steam power. this put me in an interesting position, considering that the other guys had nationalism, communism, and medicine. i was afraid that if i waited, somebody else would get steam power and whore it out before i had the chance to!! so i took a risk and did it first. by shopping around for the best deal, i ended up with every resource (including coal!!!), every luxury, every tech, world maps, all the gold in everybody's treasury, and something like an extra 300 gold per turn. i think i really crippled the other civs, which is good. i upgraded all of my pathetic pikemen to riflemen, set my science at 100% and went for industrialization. i started building my rail system, and set city production to useless police stations (i don't have a corruption problem since i'm pretty small) in anticipation for industrialization. then all i had to do was keep railroadin' and wait. my production really started to kick butt, what with all the new railroads.

in no time, i got industrialization and switched production to factories. in addition to railroading, my workers began to chop down the trees. in my top production city, i rushed the factory and set production to universal sufferage. i waited a little bit to get a good head start and then whored industrialization out for medicine (which the biggies had by then) and more gold per turn, as much as i could get. i'm hoping to cripple them scientifically by taking away a big chunk of their per-turn income. i also did my usual hook-up-the-little-guys routine, which gives me some money and makes them stronger so they can at least trade and defend themselves. i always feel bad for them and try to do my part. so now:

- science is at 100%
- i almost have electricity
- my factories are almost done (and i already have them in the city i rushed and one other)
- my net income is around 400 per turn
- my military sucks! this is a problem. i have no navy, either.
- EVERYONE is polite with me (except for the zulu, who have been furious since they demanded my territory map back in 500 AD and i told them to go fark themselves).
- speaking of which... i need to take over the technologically retarded zulu to get more land. too bad they have ROPs with everyone, and a few MPP agreements with unknown civs. apparently they knew they were weak and decided to save their butts. i hate not knowing who has a MPP with who!! i know that when i decide to take them over, some scary civ will come after me because of an MPP. i don't like the whole MPP game, which i'm really bad at. i don't know how to tell who has them with who.

it's really fun and frightening at this point. when i get electricity, i don't want to sell it to anybody else, because i am determined to get theory of evolution first. at the same time, i must maintain my current level of income in order to fund my scientific progress, which necessitates making deals with the other civs. *whew*

i guess this thread is getting more about me telling the story of the game than discussing strategies at this point. but right about now in the tech tree seems to be one of the most highly debated aspects of the game, and certainly falls under "strategy." i hope i did the right thing by going for industrialization. i figured, increase production and then i'll be able to build the theory of evolution that much faster. but i'm worried that somebody else will discover electricity and whore it out too soon. i mean, if i'm halfway through researching scientific method, and have a "palace" almost done at a big production city, i'll feel a lot more comfortable with selling electricity. do i have a way of knowing how close the other civs are to discovering a tech?

the next step after electricity & scientific method will be atomic theory & electronics. i always prioritize the hoover dam so i don't have to build those pesky power plants. hopefully i'll be able to buy/trade for replaceable parts, or maybe i'll get that tech once ToE is done. if anyone is interested, i'll give another update. for me, this is really interesting because it's the first time i've ever played a huge map with all the civs! it's blowing my mind to have factories in 1500 AD. LOL

thanks for the ideas and help. sorry i didn't post a save - i would have liked for you guys to look at it. i'm either really smart or really lucky that things worked out the way they did. i just hope i'm not setting myself up for bankruptcy/hostile takeover. i've never stolen technologies before, but i'll give it a whirl if i fall behind again and if i need to. i still can't believe i went from barely keeping up to the technological center of the planet in only a few turns!!! i guess it helps to be human so you can rip off the AI. theseus - i totally agree that the best games are the ones in which you make an amazing comeback. it's SOOO satisfying to turn around and thumb your nose at the civs who used to try to sell you techs for every last penny you had.

	17-09-2002 23:40									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

oops, i forgot that you can choose the techs you want after getting ToE. d'oh! also i apologize for the extreme length of my prior post. i'm just a little excited.

	18-09-2002 02:03									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How do you keep the citizens happy? No lux slider, you don't mention anything but one scientist? Even with markets and many lux items, some must be getting testy? What level is this? BTW glad you are having fun.

	18-09-2002 02:58									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I usally don't sell steam power, this one will give you a lead (railroads), even if they get a few turns later, this can be a breaking the circle point . once an other civ gets it, I might sell it to the smaller civs ( depends on how the map 'looks')

Now , make sure you get hoover dam and you will be on easy street. (remember that you can only build hoover in a city with rivers)

PS: once you get wall street, be sure to have at least 1000 gold in your 'bank account', otherwise it don't do nothingk

still would like to see a save game

finally: it's nice to hear someone is actually enjoing this game

	18-09-2002 03:05									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The example above of being first to steam-power illustrates the huge value of being first to a tech.

In recent emperor games I've recovered a middle-age tech deficit by researching Printing Press at 40-turns (having used all my Gold to pay for desirable wonder-techs like Theology / Invention / Music Theory). The AI's all crowd into the middle of the tree leaving the top row free for the human. Trade PP for things like Banking, Astronomy,Gunpowder and by then the payments have expired so step on the science and hit Democracy in maybe 10 turns or less as uni's & banks get built. They lurve this one - you can clean up just about all the available top-end Middle Age techs - with some spare cash and tradeables to oil the deals.

In the Ancient era I beeline for monarchy (with Cleo), trading my monopoly techs for the rest as I go.

	18-09-2002 03:46									#13
	Re: fantastic miracle - problem solved Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Bella Hella [. . . . ] - speaking of which... i need to take over the technologically retarded zulu to get more land. too bad they have ROPs with everyone, and a few MPP agreements with unknown civs. apparently they knew they were weak and decided to save their butts. i hate not knowing who has a MPP with who!! i know that when i decide to take them over, some scary civ will come after me because of an MPP. i don't like the whole MPP game, which i'm really bad at. i don't know how to tell who has them with who. [. . . . ]

Sounds like you're having a blast. I love the nail-biting games, especially when they're nail-biters into the late game.

On the MPP front - you should be able to see the current state of MPPs of all civs by establishing embassies and using your foreign advisor's screen. Assuming you have embassies with the other civs, go to the Foreign Advisor screen (F4); in the little box in the center-right, make sure the "diplomacy" (IIRC) tab is selected (can't remember the name of the tab, but the one that is NOT "Trade"); make sure to check-mark (by clicking) the appropriate "deals" to display (RoP, Military Alliance, MPP); and then click once on the leaderhead about whom you want the info -- your screen should show a web of different colored lines showing you the active deals between that civ and the others. By holding "shift" down and clicking on all the leader heads, you can see all deals at once (sometimes this is too much info, however). Remember that if you're playing with more than 7 AI civs, you will need to go through the rather tedious process of shift-right-clicking on leader heads to swap out the current leaders for the remaining leaderheads that don't fit on the screen at one time.

Finally, remember that these deals only show up for civs with whom you have an embassy.

Catt

	18-09-2002 03:58									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Great job Bella!

Remember to pre-build Hoover also.

If you can, go into researching Combustion HARD. What I think you'll find is that there's a chain of about 5-6 techs in a row where you can research in 4-5 turns, selling the tech to all the AIs 3 or so turns after discovery. Again and again...

You will basically own the game from that point on.

	18-09-2002 04:15									#15
	Put an end to popups!

N00B question here:

What are u guys saying "increasing finance sliders" and that? i tried to find them but couldnt.

	18-09-2002 04:37									#16
	Suffering from ads?

In the F1 screen, at the top right, there are two sliders.

The top one is for research, and the bottom one is the luxury rate. Play around with them, and look at the "Net Gain" box which is toward the left.

Any application of your empire-wide productivity to either science or luxury REDUCES the amount of gold you gain per turn (there are some exceptions to that, such as We Love the King Day ("WLTKD")).

Again, play around with the sliders... it's a critical technique to know how to balance income, science, and happiness.

	18-09-2002 09:58									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thx

	18-09-2002 16:16									#18
	Another newb question Increase the size of your Attachments

What do you guys mean when you talk about "pre-building" Hoover Dam and Theory of Evolution?

	18-09-2002 20:23									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Sounds like you're having a blast. I love the nail-biting games, especially when they're nail-biters into the late game.

thqt's why I wanne see a save

@krusty: example: start building factory , once you discover the "theory of...." tech----> switch to the wonder.
That way you get a lead and won't take to long to finish it.

	18-09-2002 21:29									#20
	Suffering from ads?

A more likely pre-build is a palace. By the time you have factories you do not need pre-builds and do want the factories. In civ2 you could have more than one city making a given wonder so iy was a cinch to switch one to the next wonder that came along, now you can not do that.

	19-09-2002 01:14									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

@vmxa1: notice the word 'example'
the reason I didn't mention the palace as a prebuild option, is that wonders are often constructed in capitals.
So I didn't want to make things anymore confusing than they are.
(You can't build a palace in your capitol , since there is one there allready )

	19-09-2002 20:28									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 How do you keep the citizens happy? No lux slider, you don't mention anything but one scientist? Even with markets and many lux items, some must be getting testy? What level is this? BTW glad you are having fun.

well, i'm only on regent level (the "normal" one where you're basically on par with the AI) since this is my first time with a huge map and all civilizations. i didn't want to overwhelm myself the first time.

happiness - good question. well, regent level makes this easier. i also have all buildings built, meaning temples, cathedrals, marketplaces and coloseums. as a small empire, everything is pretty close together, with no random cities halfway across the world (i'm not sure if this makes any difference). i also have all luxuries except furs and gems through trading (so my people are cold and don't have nice jewelry. big whoop). all my cities are in their original locations, meaning culture is high in all (again, i'm not sure if this makes a difference with happiness). and finally, at the time of my money making mania, my cities weren't size 12 yet and i had fewer people to worry about. as they increase in size, i'll likely have more unhappiness, but right now a lot of them are in WLTK mode.

another little update on this game, which is turning out to be highly interesting:

when we last saw our heroine, she was on her way to discovering electricity. ok. at this point, i've done a "bottom" research path - electricity, scientific method, atomic theory and electronics. i got atomic theory and electronics from theory of evolution. after i discovered scientific method, i switched production of "palace" to ToE (duh). then i sold electricity and made a nice profit. i've traded for refining, sanitation, the corporation and replacable parts. i upgraded every defensive guy into an infantryman, and have hospitals in all large cities (i went ahead and built them in a couple that weren't at size 12 yet so i wouldn't have to worry about it later and could build more useful things.

i'm preparing for my war with the zulu by having all cities build infantrymen. my spy in zimbabwe tells me that they have a ton of cavalry spread throughout their empire, which are going to give me a hard time. some of these are close to my borders. at least they don't have trains! i suck at fighting wars, but i have a few objectives/problems/whatevers:

- the zulu are right next to me, and are the natural expansion direction for my empire. the only cities i want are the ones on the main continent with me. he's got a couple lame-o "AI"-style towns in the middle of this desert clusterf---, which contains an english town, a french town, a persian town, etc. he can keep those. i have no use for them.
- i do NOT want to use artillery on his cities. i want to keep the improvements, since they will someday be mine and i don't want to have to rebuild everything!!!
- his capitol is only about 5 tiles away from my western border. i was thinking about going straight for it just to be a beeyotch.
- he has an MPP with rome. i'm scared. he doesn't have an MPP with anyone else, but he DOES have RoPs with everyone else.
- basically the only reason i want to get in a war with them is for territory. i can't keep up if i stay this small, when france just keeps getting huger and huger. since they already have some nice big cities, i want to damage them as little as possible.
- i don't want to kill the people. it's not their fault they have to live under the misguided rule of shaka. i'm sure they're nice people. i'd rather integrate them into my society (take over large city with built-in population, make them happy, reap the benefits).

finally, i think i've made a mistake in my research. when i realized the AIs were going for the middle research path, i decided to study radio. this isn't going to get me anywhere financially since i have no interest in selling them electronics. not sure what to do now.

i'm a couple turns away from hoover!!! i got universal sufferage!!!

i post here at work, but i'll post a save when i get home.

	19-09-2002 21:00									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Get an Mpp with rome yourself, Then let the Zulu's attack you first within your borders.
That will make the Romans declare war on the zulu's and not on you

Bella, I (and I don't think i'm alone) would really love to see your game

	19-09-2002 21:05									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The only thing (at the moment, this will change in PTW) radio is good for, is selling it.

Btw: once you ahead far enough, stop or at least slow down your tech trading. You need an edge in warfare, let them do some hardwork themselves. Sign some emborgo deals, I.E. slow down trade wordwide, incite some global wars.

	19-09-2002 21:23									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Obviously, once you build Hoover, you can sell them Electronics followed by Radio.

I noticed you wrote that you are building all Infantry... planning on a Tank Rush?

	19-09-2002 21:30									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Neat story. Couple of things: First, this game illustrates the AI's vulnerability due to the AI researching Nationalism. If you skip it, you can build a lead toward ToE and ToE expands that lead substantially.

Second, if you are buying tech there is no reason to be in a rush to stay even with the AI. Let them get a few techs ahead since most techs don't really "count" until you are ready to use it for some purpose. What's the hurry for printing press? The price drops very very substantially for older techs and you can buy a group much more cheaply if you wait. That could perhaps have fixed the gold per turn outflow earlier in the game.

Finally, a question: If you have a palace prebuild for ToE, then get ToE and use it to go directly to electronics, how could you have had a substantial prebuild for Hoover going? Heading straight for ToE means passing up industrialization. So, what can you use for the prebuild??

	19-09-2002 22:00									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have been persuaded to join the bypass Nationalism movement lately.
As to a prebuild for Hoover, I do not think you will need one. If I get the ToE, my capitol can crank up Hoover very fast. All I have to worry about is the AI getting a leader, but at this point that is not huge factor as the AI is often only fighting with me at this time. Plus the ToE has put me in the lead for techs and I will be first to get the wonder started. I will have bought or trade for all bypassed junk techs like Espionage.

	19-09-2002 22:43									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

my apologies for screwing up my own story!!! i did NOT have a palace prebuild for the hoover dam. i got ToE and went to atomic theory and electronics. as soon as i got electronics, i rushed the factory in my highest production city and the next turn, began work on the hoover dam, which is getting done quickly because of the factory. i'm sorry for the confusion! i'm so used to prebuilding using the palace that i confused myself.

on a side note, i forgot to establish embassies in the other civ's capitols when i got writing, WAY back in the day. i realized this and had a ton of money, so i established the embassies very recently. this worked out REALLY well, because i was able to confirm that the AI wasn't bothering to build factories at a critical time!!!

a viable prebuild, IMO, is the police station, as long as you're not suffering from corruption and don't actually need it. i do this all the time.

jshelr - right on about skipping nationalism. for ME it's a good idea because i can often just trade for it from the AI, who always makes it a priority. then again, i like to build instead of warmonger.

theseus - i'm hesitant to sell them electronics right now because then everybody will be able to build tanks. i'll have to see what happens. re: tank rush - that's a good idea, because then i'll be able to destroy the zulu very easily. BUT i was hoping to take over their land before tanks. they have tundra and oil, which i want. i would love to control some of the world's oil. BTW, in my territory, i have 2 rubber and 3 iron, plus 2 silk. anyway, if i kill them before tanks, and i have all the necessary resources to MAKE tanks a few years later... i could be a very dangerous civ. plus i'm sure some of the other civs will want to take over that land for the oil. the zulu army is big but since they're backwards, they should be easy to run over. i want to be the one doing the running over before some other civ (ummm, the french) get around to it.

this has been one of the most educational games i've ever played, and i'd be happy to post a save when i get home (just don't make fun of my terraforming).

	20-09-2002 06:44									#29
	save as of 1705 AD Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i hope i do this right!!

it's 1705 AD. earning 1014 gold per turn. science at 100%. radio in 3 turns, hoover dam in 9. tons of infantry being built. regent level.

hope you enjoy, and comments are appreciated! thanks!

Attachment: miss cleo.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	21-09-2002 07:33									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

ok, gonna pick your game from here. Just to see what happens

PS: If you don't hear anything from me, it's because I lost badly