16-09-2002 22:41									#1
	Peace treaty need help Suffering from ads?

I would like to see them do something about the MPP. Last night I had more of this silly business where you pound a civ and they ask for peace and you give it. Next turn they declare war again due to the MPP they have with someone else that you are at war with? That is crazy. I would think if we have a treaty with someone and it got us into a war and we lost that war and made peace we would reputiate the old treaty. Would you not insist that they did as part of the peace agreement?

	16-09-2002 22:43									#2
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Either the new treaty should cancel the old, or it should not be possible to make a new treaty which goes against an old one.

	16-09-2002 23:45									#3
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That seems rational to me. As it stand you can get into a near ever ending war. I could have made peace with both, but I did not want too. I did not even get into the issue of how foolish it was for India to have made the MPP in the first place. I had overwhelming power and was at war with Japan when they MPP with them? Is that nuts or what and you see it all of the time.

	16-09-2002 23:53									#4
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I think that MPP should count for only one war.
The treaty should protect the two parts untill the end of the next war.

But i think that if a civ signs peace with the aggressor civ before the 20 turns that they are obligated to wage war the MPP expires as in the Military alliance.

	17-09-2002 00:30									#5
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Palaiologos, I am not sure I understood the last senence, but I was not the aggresor. I never start wars, in the sense that I do not declare them. I contact their troops in my lands and demand they leave or declare. I do not have a problem witht the concept that if I sign an MPP, it may involve more than one war in the 20 turns, only that a peace treaty should cancel all MPPs that they have or at least ones with my enemies. Who is going to allow a nation to have peace and then have that nation go to war the next day? That would force extreme consequeneces. Can you image how mad the people of the conquering nation would be if they grant peace and you violated so soon?

	17-09-2002 03:31									#6
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quote: Can you image how mad the people of the conquering nation would be if they grant peace and you violated so soon?

Yes I can, I do and they get exactly what is coming to them!

Whoever said the AI was rational? Although there are those that post here that think the AI should emulate reality, it cannot, does not and until such time as it is allowed to reprogram itself, will not When it finally is able to do that, then and only then will it be a true "artificial intelligence."

When a civ allows itself to be forced into such a situation, I take it upon myself to perform an act of "Digital Darwinisim," I dump some chlorine into the digital gene pool and blast their bytes to bits.

	17-09-2002 03:31									#7
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Errr....

Actually it was a question, i forgot the question mark.
Sorry.

I meant that when the two members of MPP get into a war because of the MPP, they are obligated to continue the war for 20 turns.

If either signs a peace with the agressor(the civ that threatens a MPP member, i.e attacks within the MPP member's borders)before the 20 turns pass, then the MPP is cancelled.

At least that is what i think is the rule in the game.

The situation you describe has happened to me many times.

P.S You never declare wars?!!!!!
I always negotiate the peace treaty and put preposterous terms that they won't accept.

	17-09-2002 03:40									#8
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quote: I meant that when the two members of MPP get into a war because of the MPP, they are obligated to continue the war for 20 turns.

They are not obligated for 20 turns, the obligation ends with the MPP. If you get into a war because of an MPP 5 turns after the beginning of that MPP, you may bargain for peace when the MPP dies with no loss of reputation. If you agree to extend that MPP when it would have otherwise ended, you must continue the war until the MPP dies again or you defeat the enemy.

	17-09-2002 03:53									#9
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Thats why I don't do diplomacy. I just wage war.

But, seriously. I did a few MPP's just for fun. I mean, imagine America and China being buddy-buddy allies? Or Arabians and Jews buddy-buddy allies?

I mean, I like to try to make alliances that are almost impossible to make in real life. Real life enemies become allies in my Civ3 games, and real life allies become mortal enemies in my games.


Did that make any sense at all?

	17-09-2002 04:08									#10
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quote: Did that make any sense at all?

Absolutely! I played a game where the Russians, the French and the Germans got a 3-way MPP going. When I finally managed to stop laughing I spent the next three days removing their colors from the map.

	17-09-2002 05:58									#11
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Yes, I no longer find I need to declare war. They will declare it and I do not suffer the war weariness. I can now stay at war for as long as I like.

	17-09-2002 14:25									#12
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quote: Originally posted by miccofl They are not obligated for 20 turns, the obligation ends with the MPP. If you get into a war because of an MPP 5 turns after the beginning of that MPP, you may bargain for peace when the MPP dies with no loss of reputation. If you agree to extend that MPP when it would have otherwise ended, you must continue the war until the MPP dies again or you defeat the enemy.

I am sure it happens the way i have described. As with the military alliance.You are obliged to wage war for 20 turns.

All deals in the game last for 20 turns.

When the MPP's 20 turns pass the deal is not automatically cancelled. It is just renegotiable. You can leave it be if you like.

	18-09-2002 08:14									#13
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Palaiologos, I'm not sure that you understood miccofl correctly. What he meant was that the MPP expires 20 turns after you negotiate it, not 20 turns after it forces you or your ally to go to war. After that, you may cancel it and negotiate peace with the enemy. (Actually, you can negotiate peace before that, but the MPP will force you to declare war again if that party attacks your partner again; that's the absurd state of affairs this thread is about.)

	18-09-2002 16:07									#14
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quote: Originally posted by miccofl They are not obligated for 20 turns, the obligation ends with the MPP. If you get into a war because of an MPP 5 turns after the beginning of that MPP, you may bargain for peace when the MPP dies with no loss of reputation. If you agree to extend that MPP when it would have otherwise ended, you must continue the war until the MPP dies again or you defeat the enemy.

Just wondering how you know this? I can't find any Firaxis text on the specifics of reputation.

	18-09-2002 16:08									#15
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Or, on second thought, is there another thread here that discusses the specifics?

	19-09-2002 23:16									#16
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quote: Originally posted by JohnM2433 Palaiologos, I'm not sure that you understood miccofl correctly. What he meant was that the MPP expires 20 turns after you negotiate it, not 20 turns after it forces you or your ally to go to war. After that, you may cancel it and negotiate peace with the enemy. (Actually, you can negotiate peace before that, but the MPP will force you to declare war again if that party attacks your partner again; that's the absurd state of affairs this thread is about.)

No,no no no, i have understood what he said. Perhaps i was not clear myself.Example: Japan signs a MPP with Greece. 3 turns later China invades Japan. Greece is required to wage war on China for 20 turns OR untill the MPP expires. After MPP's 20 turns pass(since sign, not since war) it is available for renegotiation, it doesn't expire automatically.

	20-09-2002 03:09									#17
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I do not see any evidence that the AI does anything more than declare the war in all cases. It may or may not actually wage war. I see it often (as it has just did with me) declare war and sit on its hands.

	20-09-2002 03:46									#18
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quote: From the 1.29f patch readme: Added "Always Renegotiate Deals" prefs which forces a renegotiation of every non-peace treaty deal every 20 turns.

The AI will get the initiative for diplomacy as its’ turn(s) comes first. Unless you decline to extend the MPP for another 20 turns, you must continue the war or you will lose rep. If the civ you are at war with offers peace on this turn, before you have renegotiated the MPP, and you accept peace you have broken the MPP treaty.