17-09-2002 02:19									#1
	Going down with the ship? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was kinda curious... does anyone play a losing game of SMAC or Civ all the way through? I've only done it a couple of times when I was playing Civ 2 and got stuck on an island. I found my anemic empire that I had been trying to bolster for the past hour or so smashed once an AI galleon decided to drop off a couple of dragoons. And even then, I think I quit before they decided to ship another galleon full of them. I've always got to be at least on par with my neighbors to keep playing. Am I alone in this playing behavior?

	17-09-2002 02:55									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I've done it once or twice in multiplayer, and I don't think that it would really be possible to lose as single player without doing it on purpose.

	17-09-2002 03:36									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Maybe for us, BustaMike - but I still remember a time when Librarian was a daunting prospect...

But no, I don't think I've ever played until I was eridicated, or someone else won by another means.

	17-09-2002 03:40									#4
	Re: Going down with the ship? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Spacecow a losing game of SMAC or Civ

WTF is those, never heard of them.

	17-09-2002 03:48									#5
	Tired of ads?

i may have quit losing games, but i've never actually lost to the AI. never seen an AI win before. should just try doing drones or believers with tech stag and agressive opponents one time just for the hell of it

	17-09-2002 04:03									#6
	Support Apolyton

I think tech stag would actually be a benefit when playing those two factions with a RESEARCH penalty. The 10 year moratorium on research accumulation only puts you half as many techs behind, all other things being equal. Pods still produce techs at the normal rate. Probes still steal techs at the normal rate.

I would think that using tech stag, you would only be 3 techs behind after ~ 40 turns, as opposed to 6 or 7.

I'll have to try that!

	17-09-2002 04:22									#7
	Suffering from ads?

ok...then i'll play the university on tech stag!

	17-09-2002 04:31									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm sure I've finished losing games just to see how it looks, but there is no way I would work hard for long in a clear no-win situation (that situation eventually stops arising in standard SMAC/SMAX)

	17-09-2002 04:34									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

How about the uni, running PS, Green, Power, Thought Control? That's the worst I could do without Fundy

	17-09-2002 05:06									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

But you haven't lost until it's actually lost. You can often send out a sea colony pod or transport and CP to a isolated or protected corner of planet. And then make friends with everyone through neutral SE. Then build again, and still maybe win it in the end. I have only had a couple of such games, against the AI, and one versus humans(versus humans I inhereted a poor position, that I failed to turn around quickly enough). Those are the most fun games to play. Much more fun than going through the motions where a win is inevitable by the time you get to IA.

Once a negative outcome is truly determined, it only takes a few more quick turns to see yourself in their punishment sphere. Definitely worth it!

bc

edited to make more clear.

Last edited by big_canuk on 17-09-2002 at 05:55

	17-09-2002 05:46									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've gone down with the ship a couple of times; it's cool, in a sadistic sort of way. And unlike some people, I don't consider myself too good to lose.

	17-09-2002 15:28									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I agree with big_canuk - the fun is in trying to reverse a losing game.

Now I finally understand you people who say you never lose to the AI - you just quit!

	17-09-2002 16:12									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I remember that when I first started to play on Transcend (after appr 3 months of playing SMAC), each game was a very hard challenge. I always ended up with 3-4 bases, begging AI (esp Hive) for mercy, until eventually being eradicated by AI (usu Hive). Ah, it was so wonderful time...

	17-09-2002 16:58									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Darius Now I finally understand you people who say you never lose to the AI - you just quit!

While this can be true for me in games like MoM or MoO2, in SMAC (after 4-5 games climbing up thru the difficulty levels) I never lost to the AI on Transcend, and not because I quit when I'm behind.
I often do quit, but only because I'm too much ahead.
As a matter of fact, I rarely find myself behind the AI in SP, and even when it happens it's marginally behind and for a limited time.

Only recently, in a head-to-head CGN match against Mark (I guess his ID was mark13 here), we found ourselves much behind a Hive AI, which started in a big Jungle. But it was never actually a threat to us, and eventually, in ~100 years, we caught up.

Mind, this is not boasting.
It's just that single player is NOT significant to determine the strength of a player.
I have also been soundly beaten in pbem, and there are (or were...) quite a bunch of players who could reasonably claim to play pbems better than me.

	17-09-2002 20:28									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by MariOne Mind, this is not boasting. It's just that single player is NOT significant to determine the strength of a player.

When I first joined this board and saw all the people saying deity/transcend was no challenge, my response was to take it with a huge grain of salt . . . But then I learned the higher level strategies that made SP a joke.

I have lost one SP game in the last long while and that was as Miriam ( double-blind research) on an island where I never met anyone for 100 years.

In that game I did play it out to the bitter end-- It did not take long as the Spartan chaos rovers rolled in -- I then replayed the game-- making sure to get the WP to build landbridges and by about 2170 probes and a submissive had me at tech parity and on to another win

The only fun in SP now is with the challenges. I still try the nomad challenge but it always depends n the continent layout

	17-09-2002 21:48									#16
	Remove this text

See, there are many single players much better than me!

In the sense that if I enjoy for instance cycling, this does not mean that I should find fun in riding a bike using one leg, facing backwards and steering with my ears!!!
Of course, there is a huge number of youngsters who elected bike acrobatics as lifestyle, like with the skate/snowboard and halfpipe... They even featured at Atlanta '96 closing cerimony....

I only erratically gave a fain try at those challenges, I had a bit of a hard time with the OCC and quit when my position was no better than promising, never went anywhere with the nomad challenge...

What I mean, is that there are sure some esoteric skill and techniques to hone, or metaphysic preception and understanding of the game to grab, to excel at all the weird challenges that have been invented here.
Kudos to those who got there, I'm not at that level.

But if you talk about classic play, I'm pretty solid.
And this allows me to beat the AI 99.99% of the time in standard games, and to sit in the top 15% slice of human players skill distribution (pbem-wise, wild self-indulgent estimate ).

Maybe to break in the top 3% you'd really need to recur to those skills honed in the exoteric challenges...

	18-09-2002 00:59									#17
	Got spare money?

Metaphysic perception and understanding of the game.... lol, MariOne. It's a game (I get what you're saying but metaphysics, ) That would be some other kind of game.

I thought about the question more and I think there's only one time I've ever played until the game was completely over and lost. It was a MP game with a couple of my friends. We accidentally left co-op victory on. Well only one of us remembered and he managed to pact with everyone by about turn 45 or so. Instant game over. I have never and will never play with co-op victory on again. It's ridiculous.

	18-09-2002 03:46									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

The computer seems very reluctant to follow up any military advantages, especially if you're willing to kowtow to him in the form of cash payments or tech. The only game I've _lost_ per se is the first time I launched a flurry of PBs in the mid-late game, without having lifted the charter first. The sanctions didn't hurt me so much as the massive ecodamage from an indignant planet. I wasn't prepared, and complete and total worm-rape ensued. I have to admit, I was impressed, such that I've never been even remotely tempted to build PBs without lifting the UN Charter first.

	18-09-2002 04:05									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, the jury's still out on why Planet seems to respect the lifting of the charter...

	18-09-2002 04:13									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Frankly, I'm glad you can get Planet to respect the lifting of the UN Charter, I _love_ PBs, they're the reason I keep playing the game. Shaves as close as a blade or your money back!!!

	18-09-2002 08:31									#21
	Got spare money?

About the only game I've lost was as Uni, the Spartans rolled up with an Ogre MK1 and some rovers and took Uni Base and another base... and well that left me with one base so I admitted defeat....

I've won worst, Morgan trapped on a sliver of land between a big wet thing (the ocean) and a big hard thing (the caretakers). Fought my way out too, fleeing to offshore islands is for wusses

	18-09-2002 21:43									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

ROTFLOL!

One offshore flight that I remember doing was in response to a Spartan orge rush.

bc

	18-09-2002 22:48									#23
	Put an end to popups!

I'll finish a losing game if it looks interesting / funny to defend your losing nation. But if the game's just too clear, it gets boring and I quit before losing.

	27-09-2002 23:28									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

So does anyone know if it's even possible to become an AI's submissive pactmate? Or do they just kill you off?

And then the next obvious question... if you can become submissive, can you defy your new "master"? (or maybe only if you're Miriam... :P )

	27-09-2002 23:45									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I certainly have never seen it as an option, and I doubt I would take it if it was offered. I'm the sort of player who won't give up until I've been burned out of my last bunker. The enemy is at liberty to oppress my corpse.

	28-09-2002 00:09									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I doubt if a human could ever become a submissive in the way the AI does since all that " submissive" means is that the AI follows a programmed pattern of behavior. No human could be forced into that.

Now it would be possible to stay alive by following a very meek and accomodating pattern of behavior. When faced with a spartan or alien rush in the early game, I would be totally submissive, knowing that in a few years, when I built up, they would be in my torture chambers

	28-09-2002 01:52									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I was once playing as PK, using thin expansion, with virtually no military techs o offencive units becuase I had a gut feeling that I was alone on my patch of land, but no Uni had to land a Colony Pod via Tansport foil and manufacture Impact Rovers. He wasn't interested in anything except my destruction (I received the message - "Take a good look at what is left of your pathetic empire - there will be little of it left, next time we meet"). and I watched the punishment sphere video.


Another time, I selected Believers, landed on a tiny 5 * 5 patch of land, saw I'll no get far, I destroyed all my units and obliterated New Jerusalem... no offence to fans of Miriam I received a message: "The Believers were eradicated" without saying who eradicated them. Amazingly I still had 10 years of sanctions...