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Ethelred
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quote:
I've been reading my Bible a lot closer lately, and nowhere in there does it say OR allude to Sodom and Gomorrah as being destroyed for pervasive homosexuality. It is not mentioned directly, and as far as I can see (in TWO versions), there is no allusion to indicate that the destruction took place due to men having sex with men. |
It depends on the translation for one thing. I remember having a discsusion about Sodom and Gomorrah and looking at it and wondering what was wrong with the locals wanting to know the strangers. Sure is funny how 'know' really meant homosexual rape. The KJV kind of took the meaning out of it.
KJV
Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Catch is that even when I look up that verse in a concordance its still not clear that they aren't just being neighborly.
that we may know them = one single word in hebrew - yada`
Which has a horde of meanings and it looks some came from translators guessing from context.
03045 yada` {yaw-dah'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 848; v
AV - know 645, known 105, knowledge 19, perceive 18, shew 17, tell 8,
wist 7, understand 7, certainly 7, acknowledge 6, acquaintance 6,
consider 6, declare 6, teach 5, misc 85; 947
1) to know
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to know
1a1a) to know, learn to know
1a1b) to perceive
1a1c) to perceive and see, find out and discern
1a1d) to discriminate, distinguish
1a1e) to know by experience
1a1f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess
1a1g) to consider
1a2) to know, be acquainted with
1a3) to know (a person carnally)
1a4) to know how, be skilful in
1a5) to have knowledge, be wise
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be made known, be or become known, be revealed
1b2) to make oneself known
1b3) to be perceived
1b4) to be instructed
1c) (Piel) to cause to know
1d) (Poal) to cause to know
1e) (Pual)
1e1) to be known
1e2) known, one known, acquaintance (participle)
1f) (Hiphil) to make known, declare
1g) (Hophal) to be made known
1h) (Hithpael) to make oneself known, reveal oneself
Only 1a3 fits the homosexual rape theme that is root of this and I would not be surprised if 1a3 is based on the passage and not some other source.
I think this part has something to do with the interpretation.
Gen 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as [is] good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Some think its a matter of hospitality and not sexual proclivities. I think its a story to try to put the blame for a disaster on the victims, assuming there was a disaster. A popular pastime. 'Ohhh something awfull happened. They must have done something to deserve it.'
Also there is chapter previous to that. I think it gets passed over because it contradicts other claims in the Bible so people tend to ignore it.
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
The contradiction is that Abram meets Jehovah face to face and other passages in the Bible claim that isn't possible.
I am know there are parts of the Bible that more clearly against homosexuality.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
Only 1a3 fits the homosexual rape theme that is root of this and I would not be surprised if 1a3 is based on the passage and not some other source.
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the bible at least uses this context over and over again
and it is what makes sense in the context of the story also
Jon Miller
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
and it is what makes sense in the context of the story also
Jon Miller |
I agreed with that. I am just thinking that the word may not have that meaning in anything outside the Bible considering how far down the list it was.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
IF, in fact, one considers homosexuality to be a sin, it's forgiven if you have faith. |
Well, yes that's true Slowwhand, but forgiveness does not mean one can keep on sinning. Thus, if we consider homosexuality to be a sin, one has to repent of their sin (and obviously make an effort not to sin) to be forgiven.
As another example, murder is a sin, but that doesn't mean that someone can murder someone, ask for forgiveness, and then keep on murdering people on the basis he is forgiven.
I'm not saying that homosexuality is a sin - there are parts of the Bible that strongly suggest homosexuality is a sin, but those are mainly Old Testament law, if I recall correctly, and OT law applied only to Jews before Christ came. But in any case, there are a number of logical contradictions that crop up if you say homosexuality is a sin For example, it's true that one cannot really help who they are attracted to, so therefore being attracted to someone is natural, therefore if a man is attracted to a man it is natural, and it's hard for me to see how God can create someone a certain way, and for them to feel a certain way as a result of that creation, and for those thoughts to be sinful.
But anyway, I'm not gonna say one way or another, only that I don't really care, homosexuality doesn't bother me at all, and it's none of my business.
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Capt Dizle
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you thump your bible and I'll thump mine...
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Jon Miller
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lusting is fairly natural, but lust is a sin
Jon Miller
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Dan Severn
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Wellborn, Texas The Warrior Dennis Miller
May 2001
time: 23:22
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*thumps bible*
*goes to hell*
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
lusting is fairly natural, but lust is a sin |
And you don't see that as being inconsistent?
That was sort of my point - if homosexuality is indeed a sin, there is a consistency/logic problem there, don't you think?
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Jon Miller
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no
one of the ideas of christianity (not uniformly accepted) is that this world is sinful, ie that we are born predisposed to sin
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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the point is that everyone has sinned and needs a savior
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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well, we could...
Jon Miller
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
one of the ideas of christianity (not uniformly accepted) is that this world is sinful, ie that we are born predisposed to sin |
I understand that. But let's take that through to its conclusion.
The wages of sin are death. Death, in that sentence, equates to hell, separation from God. Therefore, sin equals hell.
If one doesn't sin during their life, they won't go to hell. But, it is impossible for one not to sin. Yes, one has a choice about which action to take, but the Bible itself even says that all have sinned (and by logical extension, all WILL sin). Therefore, in actuality there is NO choice in the matter, and we will all sin at some point.
This is of course because we are born with a sin nature. We did nothing to deserve this sin nature. The sin nature is there because of Adam and Eve's sin. Thus, every person is born with a sin nature that is a result of the sin of two people thousands of years ago, and as a result of THAT, everyone will go to hell.
Unless, of course, they become a Christian.
But that brings up another good point. What about non-Christians? Well, obviously non-Christians go to hell, because they have sinned, and have not received forgiveness, not been saved. Yes, there are exceptions that I think the Bible provides for, such as small children and the mentally retarded, but overall, it can be said that all non-Christians go to hell.
But what about those that never heard about God, that were brought up their whole lives as, say, a Hindu? Well, the argument usually goes that if one really seeks the truth - Christianity - then they will find it. However, this argument makes no sense. If one is brought up as a Hindu, they are taught all their life that Hinduism is truth. They believe Hinduism is truth, and have no reason to seek another truth. It's not really fair to say that they should have been Christians if they really sought out truth, because that is not their fault.
Yet these people still go to hell, because of their sin nature, which they did nothing to deserve. I've also heard it argued that they did in fact deserve the sin nature because of sins they will commit later in life. But this doesn't make any sense at all, because one has no choice in the matter of sinning by virtue of having a sin nature. That's circular logic - one sins because of their sin nature, and one has a sin nature because of their sin. Does not compute.
Or, take the example of an atheist. Most atheists arrive at their atheism through a form of logic and reason. Logic and reason are both natural, we are created with both. But, one can't really find God through reason or logic, but through faith. However, one can easily use logic and reason to go the other way - there is no empirical evidence for God, no scientific method for proving Christianity. Yes, one can use logic, reason, and science, to prove parts of the Bible, such as historical accounts, but so what? That doesn't prove anything - it isn't logical to say that because part of a book is true, the whole book must be true on the basis of that part or parts.
Thus, even those people who attempt to arrive at a conclusion using God-given gifts - logic and reason - go to hell as well, for the same reason as the Hindu in our example. The only person who has a chance to go to heaven is the person who has faith in Jesus Christ. But faith in Jesus Christ - that is, Christianity - is one belief system out of many, that has little to no degree of scientific proof, much the same as every other religion, and cannot be arrived at through reason and logic, also much the same as every other religion. On a purely objective basis, even a logical one, choosing Christianity is no more likely and no more helpful than choosing Hinduism, or Islam, or atheism.
OK, this is getting long-winded and I'm rambling, but I just see a lot of inherent contradictions in some of this stuff, stuff that doesn't really make sense. I consider myself to be a Christian, but I don't necessarily agree with many of the traditional interpretations of the Bible.
Maybe I'm wrong, who knows. But that's exactly the point - there's no empirical evidence either way.
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Jon Miller
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no
it is not obvious that non-christians go to hell
read Hebrews, in particular the bit about Abraham
he was not christian
Jon Miller
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by jimmytrick
you thump your bible and I'll thump mine... |
How can I thump a bible that is on the net? I use
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
Makes it easy to quote.
Its so darned to thump properly though. I can't find any soapboxes either.
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17-09-2002 03:01
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