17-09-2002 21:34									#1
	question about captured wonders Support Apolyton

ok, lets say you capture a city with a wonder(s) in it a couple of questions:

1. if a city has more than one, do you get to keep all of them? when capuring a city the military guy pops up and says "we now control _______" does he ever say "we control ________ and _________"?

2. I'm still a little unclear on what you get, I know you get whatever the wonder does (if not obsolete ala hanging gardens/flight(is that right)) such as granaries if captuing the pyramids. so then you get granaries. lets say you lose the city with pyramids next turn, do you keep the granaries? also, do I remember right that you don't get any cultural points from these wonders?

3. you capture a city with a wonder and raze it. that wonder, i'm assuming, is gone forever yes? no one will ever get it again (until the next game ) and thus no one gets the benefit of that wonder, unless (reffering to my second question) if you hold the city for one turn to get graneries/pyramids or barracks/ suntzu and then abandon the city will you keep those improvements. if no, does the game keep a record of where you had legitimately built granaries or barracks and just remove those or do you lose all everywhere?


thaks in advance

lateralis

	17-09-2002 22:42									#2
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1. the "guy" will only declare one wonder to you but you get to keep them all if you keep the city.

2. you get the effect of the wonders but no culture. you will see no musical notes next to the wonder in the improvement list. The effects of the wonders do not continue after the wonder is no longer in your possession. This can be a tiny bit complicated, but if you had a granary in a city before you got the pyramids, that granary continues to exist even when the pyramids would technically add a granary. The pyramids eliminate the maintenance costs of granaries that already exist.

3. When the city containing a wonder is razed or abandoned, the effects of the wonder are lost forever and it pisses off the AI players a bit. Any granaries or reduced costs that you got from the pyramids would just vanish.

two wierd wonder effects that have been documented:
a) captured wonders will not immediately stimulate a Golden Age, but if you have one captured one of the wonders to stimulate your GA and then build the next required wonder, BINGO.

b) wonders that confer buildings on other cities basically confer a building that cannot possible be destroyed. The combination of wonders, the palace, and the building conferred by wonders may distort the bombardment defense for a city by artificially increasing the rate of misses.

	17-09-2002 22:44									#3
	Re: question about captured wonders Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by lateralis 1. if a city has more than one, do you get to keep all of them? when capuring a city the military guy pops up and says "we now control _______" does he ever say "we control ________ and _________"?

Yes, you keep all Great Wonders within that city. Note: All small Wonder would be destroyed.

quote: 2. I'm still a little unclear on what you get, I know you get whatever the wonder does (if not obsolete ala hanging gardens/flight(is that right)) such as granaries if captuing the pyramids. so then you get granaries. lets say you lose the city with pyramids next turn, do you keep the granaries? also, do I remember right that you don't get any cultural points from these wonders?

You would get cultural points only for Wonders that you build yourself.

quote: 3. you capture a city with a wonder and raze it. that wonder, i'm assuming, is gone forever yes? no one will ever get it again (until the next game )

True!

quote: and thus no one gets the benefit of that wonder, unless (reffering to my second question) if you hold the city for one turn to get graneries/pyramids or barracks/ suntzu and then abandon the city will you keep those improvements. if no, does the game keep a record of where you had legitimately built granaries or barracks and just remove those or do you lose all everywhere?

Those graneries or barracks created by the Pyramids and Sun Tzu would be gone as well.

	18-09-2002 07:59									#4
	Remove this text

The game does keep track of which improvements a city built by itself and which it gets from Wonders. The original city improvements exist, but you do not pay maintenance on them. Further, you can actually check if a city has a barracks or granary of its "own".

Go into the city screen. Right-click on the improvement. If the city built the improvement (and never lost it), you will be given the option to sell it. If you can't, that means the improvement doesn't really exist in the city, but its effects are felt due to the Wonder. If you sell off the improvement, the city will still have the Wonder-provided substitute, but not the origianal.

I haven't actually seen it myself, but the Wonder-provided substitute improvements presumably vanish if the Wonder falls out of your control (the city is captured, razed, or abandoned). For this reason, you should avoid selling off these improvements unless you need the money or the city is about to be captured (since you're no longer paying maintenance on them). The same goes for obsolete walls (walls in Cities and Metros), btw. (To make myself clear: you might need those Wonder-obsoleted improvements if you lose the Wonder, and you might need the walls if the city drops below pop 7, so there's no sense selling them until you need to. Selling no-maintenance improvements for the cash, rather than to keep them from being captured, is really very minor micromanagement, given how little gold we are given for selling them in Civ III, and many players probably wouldn't even bother with it unless they were really desperate for gold. Still, thought I would mention it.)

cracker: in the case that was originally described, the Wonder that triggered the Golden Age was one that wouldn't normally do so. Since the player controlled both required types of Wonders, however, it was theorized that every time you complete a GW, the game checks to see whether you control both types of Wonders required for a GA, and begins one if you do. So the Wonder that triggers the GA may or may not be of a required type, so long as both types are in the player's posession upon its completion. This is all speculation, btw, but sounds like a reasonable explanation. In any case, there is obviously some sort of bug here.

Do you know whether bombardment will actually "aim for" GWs or improvements that cannot be destroyed? Incedentally, can Small Wonders be destroyed by bombardment? (I'm guessing no.)

	18-09-2002 08:11									#5
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I haven't bothered to test it myself, but another poster whose opinion I respect shared his/her discovery that a city with a coal plant, even after building Hoover Dam (free effects of a hydro plant in all continental cities), will still produce pollution. I used to be pretty lacksadaisical about selling off any of the few coal plants I might have built while waiting for an expected Hoover Dam, but knowing (believing) that a coal plant not only costs a few shekels maintenence but also continues to produce pollution after the spiffy new electrical lines carrying Hoover's power arrives in the city . . . well, now I am pretty circumspect about selling off any coal plants as soon as Hoover is built.

Catt

	18-09-2002 10:06									#6
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Yes they will hurt pollution and in fact I do not make coal plants at all. I have enough blobs to clean already. I am not sure about coal plants, but you can not have Solar/hydo/nuc at the same time, build one and the other goes away IIRC.

	18-09-2002 11:53									#7
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I'm not 100% positive but I'm pretty sure that you can, in fact, have two factories producing shields in the same city at one time. So it isn't always wisest to sell off those polluting Power Plants immediately.

I seem to remember this discussion from a while ago:

If you have the Hoover Dam, you get a Hydro Plant in all of your cities (on the same continent, that is). If you then build a Power Plant (or Nuke- whatever), it should theoretically override and destroy the previously build plant. But since the Hoover Dam provides a Hydro Plant in perpetuity the plant can not be destroyed (or is somehow rebuilt every turn). Thus you see the effects of having both a Hydro Plant AND a second plant in these cities.

Or at least, that's what I'm led to believe...

	18-09-2002 16:40									#8
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I may be remembering this incorrectly, but when I was first playing, I built some coal plants and then got the Hoover Dam.

Careful reading of these columns and the guide led me to sell all the coal plants, which had no effect on production but did reduce pollution

	18-09-2002 17:49									#9
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quote: Originally posted by JohnM2433 The game does keep track of which improvements a city built by itself and which it gets from Wonders. The original city improvements exist, but you do not pay maintenance on them. Further, you can actually check if a city has a barracks or granary of its "own".

Usually, I sell off all of those original barracks or granaries for extra cash. Once I get a hold of the Pyramid or the Sun Tzu, I would defend them with all costs; therefore, I don't need to keep those original improvements.

	18-09-2002 22:18									#10
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I am not sure about coal plants, but you can not have Solar/hydo/nuc at the same time, build one and the other goes away IIRC.

That's exactly right - the only exception is that any plant you build yourself will show up in the city improvements window, as will the hydro plant icon that is generated solely because of your ownership of Hoover Dam. Even though you see two power plant icons in the improvements window, you only get the 50% (100% in the case of a nuclear plant) production bonus once (i.e., you don't get a boost both from the free Hoover hyrdo and the coal / solar / nuclear plant you may build).

Catt

	20-09-2002 13:50									#11
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Does that mean if you rase the city, containing the Manhattan Project, the making of nuclear warheads will be impossible?

	20-09-2002 15:56									#12
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Yes, it probably does. But the nukes already being build will still be finished. You cannot build new ones.

This is why it should be a small wonder....

	20-09-2002 21:29									#13
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I never liked the idea that if one gets it all get it. You should have to research the tech and have uranium at a minimum. A small wonder would be better.

	20-09-2002 22:32									#14
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Is there any way in the wonder to assign it small wonder status, and not make it universal.

	20-09-2002 22:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by georges bonbon Does that mean if you rase the city, containing the Manhattan Project, the making of nuclear warheads will be impossible?

I tested this in one of the AU games (or MT games) and found that the destruction of the MP did not preclude future nuke biuilding. Once the MP is built, you can't really put the genie back into the bottle - nukes will be there to stay.

quote: Originally posted by Wormwood Is there any way in the wonder to assign it small wonder status, and not make it universal.

I've never tried it myself (so take this with a grain of salt), but have read of repeated attempts to do this without success -- it seems that the "allow nuclear weapons" flag in the editor always makes nukes available to all civs - there doesn't seem to be a way to limit it to "allow nukes for civ that builds improvement."

Catt

	21-09-2002 06:14									#16
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vmxa1, nuclear weapons can indeed be built by a civ that has not discovered Fission -- tactical nukes and ICBMs require only the Space Flight and Satellites techs, respectively. However, all nuclear (or as they say in Washington, "nukular") weapons require both uranium and aluminum to be built.

By the way, how "historical" would it be to have the Manhattan Project as a Small Wonder? That is, after nuclear weapons were first developed, was the knowledge of how to make them generally obtained from already nuclear-capable countries (through open sharing of information or, more likely, espionage), or independently rediscovered? Probably a combination of both, I'm guessing, but if anyone here knows about the history of nuclear weapon development, please share. I agree we should be able to make the Manhattan Project a SW in the editor, btw.

	21-09-2002 08:58									#17
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I understand what is required in the game, I am only saying that because of MP in the US, no other nations was then able to know about making atom bombs the same day. They were forced to learn the skills/knowlegde or steal it and then come up with the necessary components. In the game the knowlegde is granted to all from the MP. The other tech and resources they must get for themselfs. I would prefer to make them all do a shadow MP and that could be done with a SW. This is not as a mod, but a change in the game itself. Better yet let me disable nukes as a valid weapon in the game at start up time.

	22-09-2002 07:43									#18
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Thanks for respecting my opinion Catt, I was about to post the pollution problem after Hoover Dam myself.

	22-09-2002 07:55									#19
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The Manhattan project is a historical misnomer. They didn't test the first A bomb in manhattan. They tested it in the Nevada desert. You may remember that John Wayne died of lung cancer? So did everyone else that worked on a movie called "the Searchers" tiny particles of plutonium they inhaled while they filmed the movie in the Nevada Desert caused cancer, JW had parts of his lungs progressively removed, partly to get rid of the cancer but mainly to get rid of the minute plutonium particles. It took twenty years after JW died for that little gem to get into the public domain. The very name "Manhattan Project" was an exercise in secrecy. It is rightly a small wonder. Would you use a weapon you hadn't tested?

	22-09-2002 09:59									#20
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The name is not a misnomer, it was not intend to imply that it was test in NY. I can not recall, but I think it had to do with the NYCC and the people involved. No one would think they tested in Manhattan. One may conclude that the dukes cancer had at least a bit to do with the decades of smoking. Where did you get that "gem" from the web? Now there a solid place to find the true.

	22-09-2002 11:00									#21
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BTW, the very first nuke test was at Los Alamos, New Mexico, not in Nevada. It was some time later that the Nevada Test Site came into being, sometime in the 1950's.

I remember seeing a couple of above ground nuke tests in the late 50's from the Las Vegas area. Just a small flash (apparent 1/2" diameter) above the horizon.