18-09-2002 03:26									#1
	turism and wonders Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Could Firaxis add in a futur add on a new function to Greats Wonders ?
When a Great Wonder becomes obsolete, it produces only culture and only for
the builder
civilization (nothing if captured).

An obsolete great wonder might produce income because of tourism. 1 gold per
turn and for
each foreign civilization in contact with its owner. Of course only
peacefull civilization can share tourists.

A great wonder that never expires produces gold after existing for 500 or
1000
years.

Small Wonders don't produce gold (but this option could br available)

All these options shall be editable (through the editor).

What do you think ?

	18-09-2002 04:05									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Obsolete and functioning wonders should both draw tourists, the Empire State Building gets tourists doesn't it? 1 gpt for every 10 million civizens(tm) living in civs the owner is at peace with.

	18-09-2002 11:23									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have some ideas about tourism, unfortunately some of them could appear only in a future civ4, if ever. Nevertheless, if at least the basic idea could make it, I'd be happy


TOURISM
Tourism should appear after the discovery of steam power (railroad) or another invention that gave people the ability to travel more & easily. Starting from this moment, every city that possesses a Basic Tourism Resource would start to receive a steady income from tourism. The total amount of money a city is receiving would depend on the Advanced Tourism Resources and on the Global Tourism Resources.

Basic Tourism Resources
They will generate a fixed amount of money, no matter how small or big the city is.
- natural resources (luxuries and some new terrain types: sand beaches, snowy mountains, exotic animals)
- city improvements: very old temples, colosseums, cathedrals
- wonders: all the great wonders and some small wonders (Heroic Epic and ?)
- natural wonders (ex: Mount Everest, Niagara Fall); they could randomly appear during the map generating process

Advanced Tourism Resources
They will increase with a certain percentage the city's tourism income
- the size, wealth and culture of the city (with a special bonus for Top5 cities)
- infrastructure (railroad connection, airport, harbor)
- city improvements (ex: hotels, casinos, entertainment centers)
- "We Love the ..." days
- maybe a small wonder: Disney Land ?

Global Tourism Resources
They will increase or decrease with a certain percentage the tourism income throughout your entire empire
- certain discoveries (ex: telephone, television, Internet – through better communication and advertisement; I know they are not in civ3, so find some substitutes: electronics, flight, or maybe something else)
- great wonders (ex: Olympic Games)
- pollution (will decrease it)
- war (a war waged inside your borders should drastically reduce the tourism income)
- the reputation of your civ
- your civ's total culture (the bigger the better)
- happiness and freedom of your citizens; more democratic government would increase the tourism income;

As you can see most of these factors would handle your tourism income automatically, there would be only a few new things that you should manage separately: some new terrain types and a few new city improvements and wonders.

Thoughts?

	18-09-2002 16:36									#4
	Got spare money?

You have to look at tourism from an economic point of view. Where does the money that tourists spend go to? Not to the government, if you ask me! Although one could argue that indirectly the government benefits of tourism by taxation of income, I would say that it works in both ways: your people visit foreign countries as well and spend money there too. You'll only notice a difference when your country has significantly more touristic sites (e.g. wonders) than other countries. IMO the implementation of such a system would be out of the scope of this game. It's not Capitalism, you know!

"Show me the moneeeey!!!"

	18-09-2002 18:21									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Martinus Magnificus You have to look at tourism from an economic point of view.

I am.

From an article on http://www.peopleandplanet.net/ and some WTO data from 2000:

quote: By some measure tourism may already be the world's largest industry, with annual revenue approaching $500 billion. Leisure is estimated to account for 75 per cent of all international travel. The World Tourism Organisation (WTO) estimated there were 698 million international tourist arrivals in 2000. The World Travel and Tourism Council (WTTC) predicts global turnover from tourism in 2001 will be around £2.3 trillion - 10.8 per cent of global GDP. Globally, tourism accounts for roughly 35 per cent of exports of services and over 8 per cent of exports of goods (WTO). In 1995, 11 per cent of the global workforce - over 200 million people (predicted to rise to 340 million by 2005) - were directly or indirectly employed in tourism (International Labour Organisation - ILO). These figures would make tourism the world's largest employer and arguable it's largest business in terms of income. For 83 per cent of countries in the world, tourism is one of the top five sources of foreign exchange. Caribbean countries derive half their GDP from tourism. (World Resources Institute)

	18-09-2002 22:15									#6
	Tired of ads?

I must admit that tourism is a major source of income for some countries, but as I said, it works in both ways. To implement such a concept in Civ III would not only be difficult, it would also go beyond the scope of the game. One could as well argue that, for example, the concept of unemployment should be incorporated in the game. Or the concept of natural disasters. We must realise that a computer game is always an abstraction of the real thing. that implies that only relevant concepts are implemented in a game. The question therefore is: is the concept of tourism crucial for a game like Civ III? I think it is not.

	19-09-2002 01:18									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Maybe captured wonders shouldn't produce income, but they should still produce SOME culture, maybe half the original culture value.

	19-09-2002 10:47									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Martinus Magnificus The question therefore is: is the concept of tourism crucial for a game like Civ III? I think it is not.

I didn't say it is crucial. But what is really crucial in civ3? Workers are not, culture is not, barbarians are not, caravans and spies are not (since they dissapeared) etc, a lot of things are not essential, they are (or were) there for fun.

For me, having extra money from tourism would be fun. I don't like wars (l mean, warmongering all game long), and managing a civ's economy is quite boring, right now.

quote: implement such a concept in Civ III would not only be difficult

Why would it be difficult? It would be some extra money flowing in, 2 or 3 new terrain types (but not necesarily), one great wonder (Olympic Games), one small wonder (Disney Land), one extra city improvement (stadium or casino or something like this) and some calculation the computer would automatically handle.
It is very similar to the trade system: gold mines, marketplaces, banks, Wall Street, Adam Smith, ...
What is so complicated here?

Civ3 added depth to the economic system, with the addition of resources, but sadly, the fun of managing an economy is close to zero.

	19-09-2002 16:42									#9
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I have some ideas about tourism, unfortunately some of them could appear only in a future civ4, if ever. Nevertheless, if at least the basic idea could make it, I'd be happy

Great ideas I posted some of my ideas about this concept of tourism some months ago, but your's better

Tourism is an important factor for civs in modern days, so why not implent it in Civ4...

Though, since this has something to do, with how the other civs are seeing your civ, the regard system has to get repaired (Pretty strange, that you have to be at war to have friends)...

	19-09-2002 17:54									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by ADG Great ideas I posted some of my ideas about this concept of tourism some months ago, but your's better

Thanks

quote: (Pretty strange, that you have to be at war to have friends)...

True, true.

This reminds me another AI stupidity:
Sometimes I am between 2 civs that are in war and they have to cross my teritory to fight each other. For strategic reasons (kind of puppet policy, favorizing one civ to weaken another) , I offer to one of them RoP and, instead of beeing happy for getting an advantage, they ask me to give them RoP and a tech or money. Yeah, right!

	21-09-2002 15:20									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

How about hosting the Olympics, that would generate revenue and also bring in the tourists! Of course, you would have to build the WOnder first.

	21-09-2002 15:41									#12
	Remove this text

I like the idea that you get a few gold per turn for each old Wonder you have. If you went to war you should loose some of the gold because no turists will visit your cities. (At least not turists from the civ you are at war with).

	21-09-2002 15:43									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by rob.derosa How about hosting the Olympics, that would generate revenue and also bring in the tourists! Of course, you would have to build the WOnder first.

Olympics every fouth year. Then you would have several Olympics per turn early in the game.

	21-09-2002 21:19									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Hagbart Olympics every fouth year. Then you would have several Olympics per turn early in the game.

1) The time limit would probably be different,

2) I said you had to build a wonder first, so it may only become available in the industrial age.

	22-09-2002 04:45									#15
	Remove this text

Tiberius : i agree with all your ideas, very good

Matinus Magnifcus : sorry but turism can be automaticly handled by the game as some people said in this thread.

I like Olympic, some ideas :

The Olympic Wonder, allow first olympic stadium small wonder and organisation of the first olymic game and after every four years. After the first olympic game, other civ can build the olympic stadium small wonder. When a civilization complete it, she can compete with others olympic stadium owners to organise the next olymic game. All the peacefull civilization (with or without olympic stadium) vote for choose the winner civilization. The previous olympic game organiser can't compete.

Olympic game double gold from tourism for the next 4 years for the organiser and treble gold for the olympic wonder owner.

	24-09-2002 15:48									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Babsimov, isn't this a little bit too complicated?

I think a great wonder called Olympic Games ought to be enough. It would either boost your tourism income or (for those who like the idea of organizing the games once in 4 years) it could generate extra money every 4 turns.
Also the Olympics should improve your reputation, IMHO.

	24-09-2002 21:07									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes a little complicated, but i think it add more fun for peace time.

	25-09-2002 01:20									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Maybe captured wonders shouldn't produce income, but they should still produce SOME culture, maybe half the original culture value.

Of course they should, if the Taj Mahal gets captured by Pakistan, won't tourists still go there? No one who captured the Taj Mahal (except the Taliban maybe) would ever burn it down because it has aquired universal cultural value.

	25-09-2002 01:27									#19
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Carver Of course they should, if the Taj Mahal gets captured by Pakistan, won't tourists still go there? No one who captured the Taj Mahal (except the Taliban maybe) would ever burn it down because it has aquired universal cultural value.

I wouldn't visit one captured by Pakistan. I wouldnt visit a statue of liberty captured by Cuba, nor St. Basils Cathedral captured by Maoist China.