27-05-2001 02:52									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

30 seconds per city would make you panic!? How long are your turns anyway?#!!@? And I also say allow tech trade and perhaps a peace tready for so many turns would be fair

	27-05-2001 03:44									#32
	Increase Your PM Length

No Tech trading

You can do better than that

Good game people

	27-05-2001 09:15									#33
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Well then so you thought Paul would beat us?? Well you are right... we conceded in 1100BC....... It could have gone on for a lot longer no one had taken a city, but both me and quinns new there could only be one outcome.

Paul had 28 cities, me and quinns had 27 between us - even with tech trading (started 1800BC) we could only match him - but his prod was way above ours......

The guy is good, no the guy is the best.... what more can I say....

Well done Paul , U beat us fair and square on ability.... and thanks for the tips!

	27-05-2001 12:00									#34
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Well the game took place and sadly over estimated both there abilities. We decided with no trading tech till 2000 bc. i dont think they meet much before that. In the end i had 28 cities them combined 27. My ranking was abit more than both theirs put together. We stopped just before mills were built after that i would have jumped milies ahead. My tec was ahead at the end i think i was about to have 3 mono's up so my tec would have got milies ahead pretty quickly.

	27-05-2001 12:09									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Paul the best HA! He is only one of the best!

	27-05-2001 15:22									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Paulno1 Well the game took place and sadly over estimated both there abilities. We decided with no trading tech till 2000 bc. i dont think they meet much before that. In the end i had 28 cities them combined 27. My ranking was abit more than both theirs put together. We stopped just before mills were built after that i would have jumped milies ahead. My tec was ahead at the end i think i was about to have 3 mono's up so my tec would have got milies ahead pretty quickly.

LOL......Paul, that's what I like about you......nothing!!

Is is good to see that you are as gracious in victory as we were in defeat..

Seriously we both appreciate you sacrificing a Sunday to show me and Quinns how to play better.. So about that suggestion to play your great grandmother .... do u really think we are up to it yet?

	27-05-2001 19:58									#37
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Well, I was going to be gracious in defeat.... but....

Paul is very good (and still as arrogant as they come A LITTLE grace would suit you much better, Paulie Boy!! ) And he might be "one of the best", but I really doubt that he is "THE best". Zeratul and Dragon have defeated him in recent weeks. He is not the GOD he makes himself out to be folks .

Gavrushka and I are mediocre players, but we stayed with him on the power graph until about 1800 b.c. when he got his many cities rolling. Nothing spectacular, just good efficient building. Paul would probably defeat most of the CTP players out there, hands down. But his arrogant little attitude won't let me rest until I whoop his New Zealand little butt -- one on one ... (I might not rest for a long, long, long time )

Seriously, I must say, Paul helped Gavrushka and me out a lot at the end of the game, during our analysis. He shared maps and pointed out the weaknesses of our growth patterns. Though he might not be "gracious", he is "helpful". Thanks for the lesson Paul.

I will be putting together a zip file of all the turns of the game, if any of you are interested in seeing how the number one player in the world operates. Send an email to quinn2084@yahoo.com requesting a copy of the turns, and I will send it to you.

	27-05-2001 21:50									#38
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Wait until he loses again, then the arrogant attitude turns around completely

	28-05-2001 02:43									#39
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Thanks for the saves Quinns, I played em, and realised what you realised....... Damn us both for fools eh??LOL

I think everyone would be well advised to request copies of the saves....perhaps you will realise what we did......Do NOT worry too much about a Powergraph........Paul played the Australians...

	28-05-2001 10:34									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

HEHE sorry to be so arrogent
i just hate modesty, being arrogent is just so much more amusing.
I was just pointing out that i would not have even questioned the settings. If id know would have been not very close. i also took 2 restarts too there 0. Hey if you allow them ill take them hehe.

	28-05-2001 20:17									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh buzz off Paul. We gave you a chance to be friendly dozens of times in this game. Gavrushka and I said "good game" to you several times and you NEVER ONCE acknowledged by saying "thanks" or anything.

After examining this specific game, you were not even in the lead. Your defenses were paper thin. How can you still be so arrogant when you weren't even really doing that well? I could have taken you out by myself, without Gavrushka's help. Anybody questioning Paul's lead in this game is free to have a copy of all the game turns up to the point where we had to stop (Paul had to finish the game "in one session" another one of his many, many "DEMANDS" during the game. 3 restarts (from him), 5000 gold (we wanted 100), 5 settlers (we wanted 3), No tech trading til 2000b.c. (we wanted tech trading). You got your way with all of this, and STILL you bad mouth us. GET LOST PAUL!

Anyone interested please e-mail me at quinn2084@yahoo.com for a copy of the turns taken about every 5 turns. I played the Irish, Gavrushka played the English, and Paul played the Australians. You will see that Paul's endless bragging is groundless.

	28-05-2001 21:25									#42
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Hmmm, very interesting.

I looked over the turns, and although the CTP ranking graph showed Paul way ahead, I think it was deceiving. I don't think he would have stayed that far ahead for long, and the game could have turned out very differently. Unfortunately, I think the game was called prematurely.

	28-05-2001 21:27									#43
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I played the game out and walked all over Pauls civ starting with the 8 samurai.

Hummm his civ revolted in 10 or so turns because there were no defenses, his cities were empty no troops around at all, it was a cake walk through his civ. I have those saved game files if anyone wants them and clearly because of the lack of infrastructure his science and civ fell rapidly after the first city went down. Three turns and I was way ahead in science. The civ became barbarians too and the entire civ revolted. Says something for temples doesn't it. You guys played well a few more turns and it was over you would have beaten him hands down job well done I have played both you guys and believe either one of you could take him in a no bug use game based on this example. Paul no offense you are a good player for sure don't get me wrong but with tricks and bugs. Don't agree sign up for a PBEM game

Paul you should play here, PBEM, it may prove to be a challenge something we all look for in gaming.

But I think the point has to be made here that this game was to see if a player that is use to playing with bugs and tricks can play the game the same without them. I would say it is clear that in fact they cannot. His science was ahead but not by much and obviously due to lack of troop cost in the field, civs empty of troops, no infastructural integrety. I would have to say had he had the ability to rush buy the things he needed it would have been different. On that note I rest my case using the what Activision calls a "BUG" and not intended to be used and in fact players that use it are not as good as player who do not IMO.

As far as game settings we here just get a terrain to work with, which is one of the most imbalanced things about PBEM. In a GL game you agree to restarts for bad terrain as it is a deciding factor. You, I would hope would want and equal starting point to test your skills against an opponent.

Good game all I hope it was fun.

Last edited by blackice on 28-05-2001 at 21:35

	29-05-2001 00:09									#44
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Thanks for the game analyses, and calm and well reasoned posts Rick and Ice. Sorry for the harsh words above, but I just got sick of repeatedly being called incompetent by Paul, for no good reason.

	29-05-2001 01:50									#45
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IMHO, Paul beat you guys fair and square. From what I have read so far, I can tell that he is a clever seasoned player who had his way from start to finish.

It's not his fault that you guys didn't call his bluff

	29-05-2001 02:22									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

jpww, Paul beat us, he did not cheat, that is not being debated - we conceded - I could justify the concession, but I don't feel that is any way relevant .

What both me and Quinns are heartily fed up of is this arrogant self righteous attitude he displays - This is a game, for fun, and believe you me the game against Paul was not in any way fun, I win, I lose, and you know that it is the same both ways for me - I enjoy it- I played till after 5:00am against Paul thanked him courteously, and said what a great player he was, asked for advice, and exchanged all the usual pleasantries - Then after our posts - he opens his infernal mouth and abuses us again - Retaliation is one thing - but Plain obnoxious booha is another, I don't accept it, I will not tolerate it, and I will respond in any way I see fit.

IMHO jpww, people that have inadequacies in their life, Paul has very low self esteem, must extol their virtues in any way they can. This is fine until it causes anger, consternation or hurt in others - Paul has crossed the line and so now we respond

BUT JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED IT PAUL BEAT US WE DO NOT DISPUTE THE GAME.

	29-05-2001 02:45									#47
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Gav, I'm sorry to hear you feel so strongly towards Paul's poor-sportmanship display. I have had ample experience dealing with ego-driven maniacs; I'm a chess player!

Just learn from this experience and move on... or not

Last edited by jpww on 30-05-2001 at 03:16

	29-05-2001 04:08									#48
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i dont have time too read all the posts yet
but i dont defend at all defending is stupid and non value added.
I dont get guys till after mills. YOu can then build pikemen at 2 turns each at least 1 turn in some cities. Work it out how long with 20 odd decent ciites does it take to get many pike men. Samarui dont beat anything with city walls. I was playing only for tec i would have built my civ up later. If you doubt me at all continue the game i aint looked at it, even though you have i dont care. i wanted 5 settlers to speed teh game up,we played 4 hours and did not get very far at all. This game would have taken minimum 7 hours to finsih which is a long time. Especially when i have an assignment due the next day. I requested 2 things specifically of all the settings (which you chose) i think thats pretty fair. I would have requested less if it was an island game, being that thats my specialty. Defending early is silly, dont bring you anything. Just slows up your growth. You can build men at the last miniute. I defended all cities taht needed to be defended. You would have only got that one silly city down the bottum taht was empty. Maybe not even that i would have had city wall and at least 2 pikemen by the time you got there. I never defend at all pretty much. Only where necessary. I was a littel bit pushy about just 2 things meremy because i was a LITTLE scared of losing. Sorry if those fears were unfounded. hehehehehehehe
nw you will call me arrogent for that but hey im a big boy i can take it.

	29-05-2001 04:42									#49
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Feel free to stop antagonising people's any time Paul, ok? Anyways, I disagree with alot of Paul's tactics. But I play differently every game, depending on alot of factors. Paul's system for building a civ, then trade, then an army can be very effective. As he has demonstrated many times in the past. I still prefer to forgo the complacency of a systemized "formula" for repetitive action every time I play. Kinda kills the fun and makes makes you impatient to play out the next 50 turns that you already have planned out from the beginning.
I prefer to play competitive games out in one session also, if possible. This normally makes it so that noone has opportunity to play with files and view the civs and the map. There was no real need for that this time though I feel, as the game was moderated anyway. And 7 hrs is definitely far from a long game. I've had some awesome games with friends before that have gone on for over 72 hrs ( when all the playing time is added up). Maybe 7hrs is long when you expect to have won in 2hrs....But if you wanted to play it out in one session then that's the toll it takes I guess. It could have gone on alot longer though.
And now for something completely different...hehe
I love these new smilies, this one's my favourite I think
I think it suits me

	29-05-2001 15:32									#50
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Did you look at the game Fuzzy
That was completely different to how i normallly play.
i dont normally go for banking first and i normally get infrastructure early. Only one thing aint changed in the way i play since i started months ago i dont defend cities. Your better not doing so unless completely necessary. I had the ciites next to him defended but the rest had none.
If Samarui are going to be used, use archers as well, works a lot better.

	29-05-2001 15:57									#51
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Blackice you said you walked over my civ!
YOu trying to compare AI to a human player ?
Sad there aint no comparison, Ai is severly retarted no question.
no need for temples till after mills genereall, trust me ive played anough games to know this. Ive played this game 200 to 400 times ive certainly lost count, never once revolted while in theocracy. Revolted once changing to democracy but that was further on in the game.

	29-05-2001 22:22									#52
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Paulno1 Did you look at the game Fuzzy That was completely different to how i normallly play.

Yep, I've looked through all the turns, played around a bit in all the civ's. I think you made it by the skin of your nose this time Paul. You had alot more luck with ruins throughout the game, which helps alot. The graph at the end jumped alot because you had recently built mills and pikes. If the other two had held out and cooperated I have little doubt the outcome would have been the same. In the end your science was something stupid like 127 turns to alchemy. You couldn't have supported much more growth with such a poor civ, and revolts and riots were definitely on the cards if you didn't build some happiness improvements fast. Happiness improvements would have made for more $$$$ to support, which would have slowed you even further. You wouldn't have been able to mobilise a decent military force to take on the other civ's for a looong time.
All of this is still enough to prove the point of the whole game to me anyway. Regardless of whether the game was conceded prematurely, and regardless of whoever won or lost.......It still proves, very effectively, that with the bugs taken out of a decent game, Paul's skills are severely limited. Limited to the point of being no better than the average player really. Hmmmm...maybe that means you are just more skilled at using the bugs eh?

	30-05-2001 03:14									#53
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Did Fuzzball just dare you, Paul?

Yup, I think he did!

I have witnessed dares before and that's what they sound like

	30-05-2001 04:35									#54
	Got spare money?

Paul I agree with you one hundred percent AI is silly at best.

But I came to the very same conclusion as Fuzzy did. Even if you started building these things now it would have been at best a struggle for you to keep up if at all. Er and I am not a newbie to this game either.

I attacked with the samurai and took the first city you had nothing to take it back with? The power graph and civ went into shock, let alone the use of slavers and the AI equation that happens. From there it was just repair work which would have held you back long enough I believe, to cause major permanent damage to your civ. Lets not forget they were advancing quickly on top of that. My guess is Zeratul beats you by more civ. stability and no crime faster to the draw?

But it is neither here nor there I truly believe while the use of the bug does not win games by itself. The use of the bug deviates from the way the game was designed to be played enough that relying on it dulls your civ skills.

quote: All of this is still enough to prove the point of the whole game to me anyway. Regardless of whether the game was conceded prematurely, and regardless of whoever won or lost.......It still proves, very effectively, that with the bugs taken out of a decent game, skills are severely limited. Limited to the point of being no better than the average player really.

Yes exactly I would agree 100% in this conclusion.

Again maybe PLAY A PBEM GAME test your skills here against some of the players. I guarantee you a challenge , good time and a game played at a livable pace. Hope to see you in a game soon, in fact we have several openings in games not yet started. We also have a need for a tribe partner for a PBEM GAME that will be starting next week. Jump in feel free to prove it over and over again without the bug er..., that you are good it would give you more bragging rights lol. That goes for you too Zeratul heh.

But I digress, where is my turn

	30-05-2001 07:53									#55
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by jpww Did Fuzzball just dare you, Paul? Yup, I think he did! I have witnessed dares before and that's what they sound like

I'm getting this strange feeling of deja vu here.....hehe.

	04-06-2001 11:47									#56
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I think you guys base alot on that small part of the game and your own hardheadedness has stoped yall from doing what you set out to do in the first place, TO LEARN SOMETHING!! I have played PAUL many times before the "bug" was know to us and I know first hand he is truely one of the best ever! Paul may not have great manners , but still I think you should show him some respect when it comes to CTP. I mean how dare you guys say he isnt a great player without the "trick"! I played CTP at least a year before I met Paul and we played many games without the "trick", so I know first hand he is a great player. Also the things here he is telling you ppl is helpfull. I would like to see some new competion on CTP so OPEN YOUR MIND and stop thinking you are so RIGHT! Paul has also told me he didn't play the the game like "normal". He used his Rank and tech as a bluff and it worked I say thats another great way to win. SO unless you guys KNOW you can beat him with or without the "trick" I wouldnt go around smearing his good name. And yes Paul likes to provoke ppl thats all part of his strat...get your enemies pissed and they can't think...they waste thier time and units attacking permaturly.But my main point is that i wish you guys would just sit back and think and learn because what you've seen from that game is only the tip of the icebreg and trust me you 2 wouldn't have killed off Paul's civ in that game.IF anyone wants to learn some things about CTP I will be happy to teach them.....


-ONE OF THE TRUE MASTERS-
Dragon

	04-06-2001 12:20									#57
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More funny stuff. Paul must be walkin' funny with your nose so far up his ass Dragon.

	04-06-2001 12:43									#58
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Dragon read the posts.... PAUL BEAT US... Any further comments are reactionary , and human nature due to dealing with a thoroughly unpleasant person, in my opinion at least.

Something has just struck me about this whole thing... There are two groups of players..... Those who ENJOY PLAYING, and those who ENJOY WINNING...

Dragon I would ENJOY playing against you, I would ENJOY losing to you, I cannot imaging for one second that you would considerate it such a major achievement beating me that you would have to stand atop the ramparts and sing to the world of your Victory!!!

Dragon I did learn something, and I posted that I did.... But I learned something more important.....U gotta have fun or it simply ain't worth it....

So Dragon one more time.... ARE U READY......


PAUL BEAT US!!!!!!!!!!!!

	04-06-2001 13:01									#59
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oh and shall I start a New Topic?? drAgON1 Challenge...........

NO NO DON'T EVEN THINK IT..........

	04-06-2001 17:04									#60
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quote: I would like to see some new competion on CTP so OPEN YOUR MIND and stop thinking you are so RIGHT!

If you truely mean what you have said Dragon why did I not see your name in the stategy section posting this bug Would not posting this bug have leveled the playing field and created better games, better competition, ya it would haveIt does not take a rocket scientist to come to that conclusion . No instead for the sake of the all mighty point the bug was used and not disclosed to the opponent before the game . That created an edge for a few, for points not for fun, not to create better equal competition that is just bs . Where is a shovel when you need one?

If you truely want better competition post your vast knowledge in the strategy section ya know the only game in GL without any postings in the strategy section or bug postings lol it is now obvious why there are none. Or disclose this bug to the opponent before the game started Why do you think GL posted it lol. Most of us here share all, why, obviously it creates better games. More fun, better competion and room for newbies to grow and that is why PBEM is still growing people are having fun more competitive games and learning almost daily.

On that note Activision has called this a bug and it was NOT PUT IN THE GAME INTENTIONALY. It was NOT and is not a normal part of the game play and obviously effects the way you play the game. Fuzzy and myself (and more I presume) have beaten players that are using this bug. Conclusion: early posting of this bug would have lead to better games more competion more fun . You will have a hard time denying that point as it is RIGHT so open your mind, enough bs post your strategy back up what you post show us you wares lol. It will create better games more competition and more fun for you tiresome bragarts. Allthough with the posting of this bug IMO you have no bragging rights as it became clear how you won some of the games you did.