21-09-2002 10:43									#31
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People were complaining about building extra ground troops for a war that has garunteed benefits and now theres a discussion to build "throw away units" on the (far) off chance they find some "lost" civilization?

Where are all the people who were pushing to end the war with Persia in order to build infrastructure?

	21-09-2002 10:54									#32
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All this is because the desire to "taste the adventure", donegeal. We can play the game looking for perfection (like some kind of exceptional AI ), but we are men...
My ancestors were from Portugal and Holland, and I live in Rio de Janeiro. I'm here just because some "suicidal galleons" did that impossible travel.
To the sea, to the lost civs!

	21-09-2002 10:59									#33
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal People were complaining about building extra ground troops for a war that has garunteed benefits and now theres a discussion to build "throw away units" on the (far) off chance they find some "lost" civilization? Where are all the people who were pushing to end the war with Persia in order to build infrastructure?

meh, ive grown so tired of oposing war, i just let the war take its pace now

but once that war's over....oooh boy, no more war!

	21-09-2002 11:00									#34
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IMHO, naval power isn't greatly neccesary other than for settler moving and exploration... not untill destroyers atleast

once destroyers, transports and, later battleships and subs, are available, naval strength seems more important to me

	22-09-2002 02:14									#35
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Spending 3 Gally's exploring and sinking while building enough more to get 6+ for transport? How are we going to afford this while fighting the Persians now and preparing for the second American war?

hi ,

this is all for this five year plan , .... not all in one day , ...

but we need to look around in the world , there might be an other prize like Uber Isle , ...

trans port , to get somewhere faster , since we dont have roads , and to move behind the enemy fast , ...

have a nice day

	22-09-2002 04:14									#36
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our resources are diverted into too mnay projects as it is.... we should hold off on the exploration. I don't like the sound of risking couple of galleys on suicide exploration. It could just be good shields thrown away into the sea while we could use those precious for internal improvements.

	22-09-2002 11:21									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II our resources are diverted into too mnay projects as it is.... we should hold off on the exploration. I don't like the sound of risking couple of galleys on suicide exploration. It could just be good shields thrown away into the sea while we could use those precious for internal improvements.

We still need more knights. Let's leave the process of probing the bottom of the ocean for AFTER we have the American cities.

	22-09-2002 20:42									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II our resources are diverted into too mnay projects as it is.... we should hold off on the exploration. I don't like the sound of risking couple of galleys on suicide exploration. It could just be good shields thrown away into the sea while we could use those precious for internal improvements.

hi ,

look what we got from Uber Isle , its worth the risk , every single bit !!

so , go for it , who knows what else we might get , ....

have a nice day

	22-09-2002 21:18									#39
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quote: hi , look what we got from Uber Isle , its worth the risk , every single bit !! so , go for it , who knows what else we might get , .... have a nice day

most certainy, I agree that the risk has paid off, but We shouldn't keep gambling and know when to play conservative. Fortune does favor the bold but not all the time~

	22-09-2002 21:54									#40
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Getting to Uber Isle was a very minor risk. We were risking one empty galley at the most.
Getting to the lost continents is a greater risk. We may lose 10 galleys (300 shields!!!!) before we even catch a sight of it.

	22-09-2002 22:38									#41
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hi ,

still the risks are worth it , even 500 shields , look what we have now , ..... it shall be some of our fastest growers , ...

and there is only one way to find out , and that is to get out there , ....

have a nice day

	22-09-2002 22:50									#42
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Wouldn't it be a lot wiser to just research navigation and then get there safely and risk-free?
Or should we rather cripple our production capabilities and waste ~500 shields on 17 galleys that might end up at the bottom of the sea?

	22-09-2002 22:55									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Wouldn't it be a lot wiser to just research navigation and then get there safely and risk-free? Or should we rather cripple our production capabilities and waste ~500 shields on 17 galleys that might end up at the bottom of the sea?

hi ,

you have a point there , but some people dont want to spend anything on research , ....

so , by the time we get it , we loose a large portion of the advantage , .....

have a nice day

	22-09-2002 23:03									#44
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fo all you adventurous advocates, your side has a valid point in that taking risk has much greater reward... only if you successfully reach that reward that is. For all of conservative folks, we dread the idea of gaining nothing out of this risk therefore we believe we'd rather lose a giant reap in profit over not losing wat we have right now. If you can convince us that risk is well worth it and We have a good chance at actually reaping that reward... then maybe then you'll start winning conservative people's support. personally, I can;t see how we have a good chance, and more and more galley we involve in, the reward just seems to look less and less attractive.

	23-09-2002 05:56									#45
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up the research rate and head straight for navigation... that's a pretty good strategy for this type of thing if it's really that important.

(while your'e at it... switch to Republic as soon as the war is over to make that research go a good deal faster...)

	23-09-2002 09:44									#46
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wat gov are we in now again? monarchy?

	23-09-2002 09:58									#47
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Yes, we are a monarchy (hmm... President OPD??? in a monarchy???).

I fully agree with uping the research rate AFTER we take our lands from the renegade Apolytonian cities (America and Persia) settle Uber Island and switch to Republic.

	23-09-2002 10:06									#48
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it is probable that our lost city may culture flip if we just focus on rebuilding after persian destruction.

	23-09-2002 17:38									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Wouldn't it be a lot wiser to just research navigation and then get there safely and risk-free? Or should we rather cripple our production capabilities and waste ~500 shields on 17 galleys that might end up at the bottom of the sea?

We will hardly be the first researching Navigation. We can't keep up in tech, because most of our city sites are still unproductive due to jungle. Even though we're industrious, it takes a while to clean that up. But if we aren't the first, we won't get the benefit for us.

I we are the first civ to have intercontinental contact, we can trade contacts and maps from everyone to everyone, at both sides. This contact, map and tech whoring will give us 3 or even more medieval techs and a big load of money and even gpt. This is more powerful than Theory of Evolution, for less than half of the shields! It will in one turn make us the richest and most advanced civ.

Right, it may take a couple of galleys. Sometimes the 2nd or 3rd attempt succeeds, sometimes only the 10th. But even if it's the 10th: These 300 shields do greatly pay. Note, we have not much chances to keep up till our terrain is developed and we're able to research ourselves. Only warfare and trades. Let's do all for successful trades.

	23-09-2002 23:12									#50
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I wouldn't be particlary surpized if only island of significant size left we haven't discovered yet is the one with the lost civs.

In my own game, I sucessfully crossed five tiles of water to get to the other civ with a Galley in a known location (culture boundary) (only 1 turn in dangerous water.)
Trade of the World Map showed they had a prescence on all those islands already. Later discovery of empty deep water post Navigation showed no other islands at all on the map.

I wouldn't burn 300 shields in a quest that could easily be futile because there is no land on the other side to get to in that direction in times of peace.

In our current situation, fighting the Persians, with American on the plate next and our coastal cities needing development as well, there's no room for fishing expeditions at all.

Wait for Navigation, or else only use units that we can afford to lose and will not replace in the near future.

	24-09-2002 00:45									#51
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Sir Ralph, I would personally prefer that we buy Navigation as soon as possible and send several ships to explore immediately. IMHO it is the only reasonable possibility.
How many turns do you think our ships will have to spend in dangerous waters before they reach land? I assume 7, two for sea tiles and 5 for ocean tiles. If we have astrology, that goes down to 5 turns in dangerous waters. The chances for a ship to survive that, assuming that each turn the ship will have a 50% chance of drowning, are 3.125%. We will lose 32 ships in the average case before we find the lost civs.
This of course, assuming that we take the shortest possible route. After all, our ships will be sailing the high seas pretty much aimlessly, and therefore have a decent chance to miss the inhabited continent(s) completley.

Last edited by Shiber on 24-09-2002 at 03:01

	24-09-2002 01:30									#52
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Shiber: That means giving away a clear advantage, because the AI does not send suicide galleys. I already pointed out what it could give us and won't repeat it.

I send suicide galleys in every game and never fail to make contact first. It usually costs about 5 galleys, that's the average, if I'm lucky, only 1-2, if not, up to 10. So what? Compared with the benefits, that's nothing.

And they don't sink in masses, quite often make it several times in a row. In my recent game as India (huge map, just like we play) my 3rd galley survived 5 times in a row ocean, without even having the Lighthouse, and landed safely at the Russian shore. From another game comes this shot, which also made contact.

Do you never send suicide galleys? That's amazing.

Attachment: suicide1.png
This has been downloaded 43 time(s).

	24-09-2002 02:15									#53
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If we were at peace and a coastal city fully developed for our current tech level we could afford one or two suicide galleys.

But not now. And I don't see both of these conditions being met during the current administration.

	24-09-2002 02:35									#54
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No Sir Ralph, I normally play in Pangaea or in Continents settings with minimal water coverage, so naturally I never had to risk sending galleys through more than 4 turns of dangerous waters.
I think your experience shows that it's very unlikely that there is in fact a 50% chance of sinking like I first thought. The chance ought to be much smaller, like 25%.
Well, that convinces me. I now support your proposal and I'm in favor of starting to produce galleys in Mingapulco as soon as the war is over.

	24-09-2002 03:46									#56
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Why not launch the expedition off the Persian/English shores?

	24-09-2002 04:08									#57
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I, being British, say we build a big navy and explore and settle on every bit of land that we find.

Should we find any really small civs, we wipe'em out before anybody else gets a chance to use it as an excuse to declare war on us!

	24-09-2002 04:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Why not launch the expedition off the Persian/English shores?

Because the Greek Island juts out more.

	24-09-2002 04:47									#59
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Hmm... I wanna hear what Sir Ralph has to say about this.

	24-09-2002 05:34									#60
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Oh no! don't risk the galleys! Look, our fundings are divided as enough as it is.... domestics, war and expansion would get nothing done. Either way we'll have to wait until Persian campaign is done don't you think? by then we should be able to get Navigation if we focus on internally improving our empire. Then we can have large persian coastal cities that can help our expedition happen.