19-09-2002 16:33									#1
	War Academy : Sea Power. Support Apolyton

From Odessa to Susa, this expanse of sea is clearly dominated by Apolyton, and we must contemplate to control the access of Mare Nostrum (or whichever name we choose). Also, with 10 coastal cities we are the civ with the longest shore, and we have to think about the way to protect it, as well as Uber Isle.

Our only direct competitors are the Russians who control the western entry with Sebastopol and Odessa. We observe that Sebastopol has a harbour which enables the Russians to build veteran ships. But the Romans, just next door, are also to be considered as competitors since they have already three harbours in Pompeii, Byzantium and Pisae. No other civ has harbour yet.

This thread is opened to discuss whether a static territorial defence, with coastal fortresses, or a more dynamic strategy based on a strong navy, would fit our goals.

	19-09-2002 16:42									#2
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I think at this juncture any more than a small navy, "just in case", isn't called for. Eventually we will need to keep our navy #1 in the world. And I think that because, knowing that there are some very powerful civs across the seas... well, that speaks for itself. Naval warfare is going to factor in significantly later in this game.

	19-09-2002 17:34									#3
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We should (in time) send a Galley to the point of our continent at which we would like to cross the oceans. Then, when our technology advances and Galleys are allowed on sea / ocean squares, we can immediately begin to search for the Lost Civs.

	19-09-2002 17:54									#4
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We should immediately begin to build and send suicide galleys across the ocean, even without Astronomy and Navigation. It's about time. Being the first civ with intercontinental contact is usually worth 2 or 3 medieval techs and a big load of money.

	19-09-2002 19:11									#5
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT From Odessa to Susa, this expanse of sea is clearly dominated by Apolyton, and we must contemplate to control the access of Mare Nostrum (or whichever name we choose). Also, with 10 coastal cities we are the civ with the longest shore, and we have to think about the way to protect it, as well as Uber Isle. Our only direct competitors are the Russians who control the western entry with Sebastopol and Odessa. We observe that Sebastopol has a harbour which enables the Russians to build veteran ships. But the Romans, just next door, are also to be considered as competitors since they have already three harbours in Pompeii, Byzantium and Pisae. No other civ has harbour yet.

Absolutely agreed, Davout. We have to be a sea power. You wiil find a map of Mare Nostrum in the habitual places (look at my sign). There's a thumbnail in this post.

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph We should immediately begin to build and send suicide galleys across the ocean, even without Astronomy and Navigation. It's about time. Being the first civ with intercontinental contact is usually worth 2 or 3 medieval techs and a big load of money.

I agree, Sir Ralph. I suggest 4 galleys to begin. At least two of them can survive for three, maybe four turns. We can send them to East. close the continent, and then NE. Just an idea.

	19-09-2002 21:10									#6
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Suicide galleys are a great idea and can be successful. Well worth the risk. But....

We have limited resources. Our efforts are at winning the current war, and building culture. We should try a couple of galleys and see what kind of success we have.

Next question...Where do we begin searching?

	19-09-2002 21:28									#7
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This point has already been discussed, and IIRC the losts civs will be searched between the Brits and the Greeks, where is the biggest piece of unknown ocean.

	19-09-2002 21:43									#8
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I see only two pratical purposes for a navy at this time- SirRalph's idea, or to try to keep other civs from Uber Isle. Both require as much diplomacy as building of ships- espcially SirRaphs good idea, since it would mean crossing large spans of foreign seas to hug the continent until we got to the most likely jump of points. Until Magnetism, a navy isn't worth making, in terms of resources. After then, I think Uber isla should be the staging point for our fleets, being i a perfect location, in the middle of the Abananaba Sea (or Gulf?)

	19-09-2002 22:17									#9
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Just for the record, assuming that a galley has a 50% chance to sink in trecherous waters, the chances that a single galley would survive four turns in trecherous waters is 6.25%. With four galleys the chances are up to 25%.
But the thing is, assuming that the lost continent(s) are where we suspect they are it would take a lot more than just four turns in sea and ocean tiles to get there...
Therefore, the plan to send suicide galleys looks kind of hopeless to me.

	19-09-2002 22:34									#10
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Queston: Would it we worthwhile to go either to the S tip of uber isle or to the sw tip of our fair continent and then south toward the poles. Unlike in civ2 I haven't seen continents often conected to the poles, however we might get close enough to see their coast and then jump.
Aggie

	20-09-2002 00:36									#11
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Let's see... NO!.

We need more barracks! (remember the military advisor in Civ2?)

Higher priority #1: Troops for our short term reclamation of rights over our lands.
Let's stick to reality here, we dont need much more galeys ATM, but we are in serious need for ground troops, we are at war with Persia. We can smite their vatherland but the current PPF (Persian Punishment Force) is not going to be enough by itself, a few more knights and siege weapons will be necessary.

After that some of the lands that are rightfully ours are being occupied by separatist rebels under the rule of some barbarian who goes by the name of Abe. We will have to reclaim our lands before they get invaded by some rival nation who we dont want to go to war with -- yet!.

Higher priority #2: Colonizing our island.
Our 2 galeys are enough to transport a few more settlers and pikemen to our island, then we can dedicate the island's resources to a self sustained isolated REXing process. This is another thing that we must put effort to instead of just launching galleys to probe the bottom of the ocean. (setlers, pikemen)

Higher priority #3: Emergency development project.
We are facing a severe underdevelopment crisis. At some point (after reclaiming our rights over the lands occupied by Abe and his folowers) we will have to address this problem trough a great "build up" project. (as short as possible, of course, because, we will need more troops after that...)

During the transition period between an emergency development project (as suggested by me in the thread about smashing the Persians) we can start to build a bunch galleys (one from each coastal city) and send them to probe the bottom of the ocean as you wish -- but we have other short term priorities to take care of first.

	20-09-2002 00:41									#12
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XOR, we have SunTzu.
About the Sir Ralph's suggestion, here is a proposal:

Attachment: galley03.jpg
This has been downloaded 144 time(s).

	20-09-2002 01:20									#13
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Well put XOR.

Other priorities, out weight the small chance that we find the lost civilizations.

	20-09-2002 01:43									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Just for the record, assuming that a galley has a 50% chance to sink in trecherous waters, the chances that a single galley would survive four turns in trecherous waters is 6.25%. With four galleys the chances are up to 25%.

Your math is right, but the Gods are with us. All depends on the # of galleys. But the risk pays, believe me. I've made the first contact in every game since long. In my (just finished) game on a huge map my 3rd suicide galley survived a 18 tile trek across the ocean till it met the Russians, without even having the Lighthouse. That's 5 times in a row surviving ocean. Lots of praying and fniger crossing, but the Gods loved me.

Btw, to the SW instead of straight W I'd have found the Babylonians much nearer, if I knew that...

	20-09-2002 02:17									#15
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I would suggest launching the kamikaze galleys from the Greek Island.

	20-09-2002 03:36									#16
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XOR,

This is not a poll; nobody intends to build right now a massive navy; but some of us can feel not totally useless to think a bit ahead about difficult stategic issues.

	20-09-2002 03:57									#17
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Who has the lighthouse? We need to watch there maps carfully. They will have a settler in a boat somewhere.

E_T

	20-09-2002 04:05									#18
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E_T, the aztecs have the Lighthouse.

	20-09-2002 05:11									#19
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quote: We should immediately begin to build and send suicide galleys across the ocean, even without Astronomy and Navigation. It's about time. Being the first civ with intercontinental contact is usually worth 2 or 3 medieval techs and a big load of money.

This is a good point. Although it may waste resources now it is a great investment.

	20-09-2002 06:17									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Until Magnetism, a navy isn't worth making, in terms of resources.

I agree

quote: Originally posted by GePap After then, I think Uber isla should be the staging point for our fleets, being i a perfect location, in the middle of the Abananaba Sea (or Gulf?)

Good Idea

I also agree with Sir Ralph hat a few "suicide galleys" could really pay off.

Food for thought....

Given the great size of Anabanana, do we really need a great navy? Unless we decide on a conquest victory, let them come to us. Aside from new contacts, I bet you we can acheive any victory ('cept conquest) without leaving the continent. There have been games where I just keep a bomber garrisoned in each costal city and bomb the s#@% out of the offending ships. The AI retreats to the nearest safe city after damage (I think once helth turns yellow) Then my tiny navy finishes off the stragglers and returns home.

it is nice to fortify a ship at sea just to keep tabs...

My $.02
Mss

	20-09-2002 07:05									#21
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((EDITED THIS POST B/C IM A DUMBASS))

Last edited by Reddawg on 20-09-2002 at 08:03

	20-09-2002 18:01									#22
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I always keep a navy out at sea as an eary warning system. Then I eliminate the threat before the units land on my homeland.

In modern times, I guess I could do the same with fighter jets (early warning that is), but until then....Go Navy!!!

	20-09-2002 21:14									#23
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hi ,

we need a navy , to start a war , to get a fast foothold in an other overseas place , to spot an enemy fleet , to transport us to new lands , ....

well there are so many more reasons out there , but they are all in favor of a navy , not one is against it , ......

so lets build it !

look what Uber Isle brought us , .....

who knows whats outhere , ....

have a nice day

	20-09-2002 22:25									#24
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There's no point in having any more naval units than we already have until more advanced naval units arrive.

We can only build Galleys right now, and IMHO we have enough neighbors on our contientant to fight without picking a fight with the "missing" civs even if they didn't sink.

The next adviable naval unit is several techs away in the tree and is also not intended to fight.

The 2 Galleys we have are sufficent for Transport to Uber Island. We should only build more if our Supereme Military Commander needs them to eliminate the Persians 20 turns after we wipe them out of their heart land and get all their techs.

	20-09-2002 23:57									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT XOR, This is not a poll; nobody intends to build right now a massive navy; but some of us can feel not totally useless to think a bit ahead about difficult stategic issues.

Sure. I was just pointing the difficult strategic issue of focusing resources on other things that might just happen to have higher priority. Like, war.

	21-09-2002 00:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn There's no point in having any more naval units than we already have until more advanced naval units arrive. We can only build Galleys right now, and IMHO we have enough neighbors on our contientant to fight without picking a fight with the "missing" civs even if they didn't sink. The next adviable naval unit is several techs away in the tree and is also not intended to fight. The 2 Galleys we have are sufficent for Transport to Uber Island. We should only build more if our Supereme Military Commander needs them to eliminate the Persians 20 turns after we wipe them out of their heart land and get all their techs.

hi ,

we need to send out at least 3 units , and keep at least 6 more to transport our units around , ....

have a nice day

	21-09-2002 01:41									#27
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Spending 3 Gally's exploring and sinking while building enough more to get 6+ for transport?

How are we going to afford this while fighting the Persians now and preparing for the second American war?

	21-09-2002 01:43									#28
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i agree with joncnunn

	21-09-2002 03:33									#29
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Building galleys for exploration, including suicidal search for other continents, is ok and even a must. Intercontinental invasions can wait till Navigation (if at all).

	21-09-2002 05:22									#30
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We only need ships for travelling at this stage.
The purpose of settling many offshore locations may be worth some thought...