20-09-2002 07:02									#1
	RPG - What Combinations of Adversaries are Tougher than their Parts? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Have you ever noticed how some monsters in RPG's are not that tough, but they combine to be much tougher? Interested to hear if you have any examples.
Here's one that I just noticed in the new Nethack release.
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I noticed in a couple of cases I encountered pyrolisks (fiery ranged gaze burns scrolls, explodes potions) and Trolls (Come back to life even while you're eating them) together.

This is a surprisingly tough combination. My counter for pyrolisks is to drop all scrolls and potions (I have no bag to stash them in yet) and don't move from my square. My counter for Trolls is to hang onto my stuff and eat them if I don't want them around.

When I encounter both at once, I cannot chase down the pyrolisk and leave the Troll uneaten or the Troll gets my potions and scrolls and wastes them against me. I am loathe to step away from the potions to eat the troll, else when "bite covered troll rises from the dead", it might get them from the place where I left them. Best compromise seems to be to drop all potions and scrolls and stand still, killing the Troll each time it rises and waiting for the pyrolisk to come to you. Bad thing about this is that I hate being forced to stand still if I'm already fleeing something else.

Worse still, last time I was fighting a water troll, I put on levitation boots to chase it down over water. While putting boots on, the pyrolisk appeared and wrecked several treasured scrolls and potions. Then I stupidly dropped my potions and scrolls (including 10 holy waters). I was blindfolded (so I could telepathically see eels in the surrounding water), so I didn't notice until later that all of my potions had smashed on the ground.

	20-09-2002 09:33									#2
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These are not really RPG's in the sense that you don't really play a role. In fact, people do all kinds of calculations to maximise their chances of "winning." Winning does not exist in RPG's and calculations are greatly frowned upon.

For real RPG's, for example, Champions, working as a well coordinated group always beats being a loose team of individuals.

	20-09-2002 11:20									#3
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I really can't think of any examples in real RPG's

but in diablo 2 having lightening enhanced (the ones that emit chain lightening when hit) physical immunity and extra strong aren't fun.

	20-09-2002 18:34									#4
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Demi-Lich plus Death Knights is a pretty tough combination (since the Death Knights are excellent tanks and the Demi-Lich can buff everybody against Turning or Dispelling or Sunlight or any other Undeath weaknesses), but then again, Demi-Lich plus anything is a pretty tough combination.

	20-09-2002 18:36									#5
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i can think of some examples in BG2...certain monsters have the ability to confuse or control my characters... pretty annoying especially because confusion and so on is deadly, i usually am able to kill my enemies with my remaining party members but when these specific monsters are protected by some serious bashing monsters or warriors it's hard because i need to concentrate on the confusion- monsters whilst getting whacked by warriors.. really tough, undoubtedly the shittiest thing in BG2, spells such as feeblemind, chaos, and confusion, or hold, they last so long (even though the time was halved since BG1, but it's ridiculous, your char is long dead before the effect wears out!)

oddly i never seem to succeed chaos, hold spells and so on, most monsters are immune or do a successful save, and humanoids are protected by spell deflecting spells and so on...(and the warriors always save vs spell whereas my warriors usually don't )

	23-09-2002 04:12									#6
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So, in BG, does the confusion spell get broken as soon as you kill the caster?

	23-09-2002 04:30									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MattyBoy So, in BG, does the confusion spell get broken as soon as you kill the caster?

I don't think so. It's not like a Dominate spell, since the caster doesn't need to maintain concentration on the spell in order to maintain it. It's more like a Feeblemind.

	23-09-2002 10:11									#8
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I have to gloat.
Look at my current selection of weapons.
d - the rustproof +0 Vorpal Blade
e - the rustproof +0 Cleaver
f - the rustproof +0 Frost Brand
g - the blessed rustproof +1 Demonbane
h - the blessed rustproof +6 Mjollnir
i - the rustproof +0 Magicbane

...and I'm not even Envoy of Balance yet.

	23-09-2002 20:12									#9
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Floating eye and newt. No question.

	23-09-2002 20:38									#10
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Nethack is probably THE game for stuff like that.

	24-09-2002 04:25									#11
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In RPG's a whole bunch of small critters intelligent enough to employ tactics are often far more effective than one boss monster. This is even more true when they have complimentary powers, like magic using, magic resistant Drow with tank support to keep you unable to close in and shut down their spellcasting - just like your own party tries to do but with extra monster special abilities. Unfortunately most computer games can't get the AI right to do this properly.

	24-09-2002 04:34									#12
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The AI for liches (IMO liches and especially demi-liches are the most dangerous adversaries when they're roleplayed correctly) in BG is absolutely horrendous. You just cast anti-magic shell (or a similar spell), sit around while they waste their spells on you, and then when they're out of spells you send in a warrior and hack them to pieces. Pathetic. Unfortunately, the real intelligence controlling the liches in my one foray into tabletop RPGing made the computer's liches look like friggin geniuses.

	24-09-2002 05:08									#13
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Pen and paper RPG's live or die on the compatability of the ref and their players. If the players are smart the ref needs to be smarter. If the players aren't into subtlety they will not appreciate a ref that outfoxes them at every turn. Some players want blood shed in buckets and others are delighted when they can spend a twelve hour session without a single blow struck (and sometimes even a single dice rolled.) I've spent sessions where we all cried with laughter and others where the tension was so high even those killed off at midnight stayed absorbed until noon when the adventure finally ended.

If you have a new ref I believe it always pays to start at the basic level of the game. You'll gel as a team or decide its not really working long before you get to meet Dragons, Liches etc.

	24-09-2002 07:04									#14
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quote: floating eye and newt

Good point. Newt is nothing on its own, but floating eye makes it just strong enough to kill you.

Now I have a new weapon called "Werebane".
I've never heard of that before.

	24-09-2002 07:22									#15
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Look I cannot stop boasting here.

How's this for someone who has not even reached Gehennom yet? Admittedly, I'm Envoy now.

BTW, I own +6 gauntlets of dex and +0 gauntlets of power, so I could switch my strength/dex to 25/18 (lets me throw Mjollnir and have it return). Don't know which I prefer.

Jack the Champion St:18/** Dx:24 Co:18 In:18 Wi:23 Ch:11 Neutral
Dlvl:26 $:0 HP:299(299) Pw:40(142) AC:-33 Xp:27/70002151 T:63944 Hungry

You are piously aligned.
You are fire resistant.
You are cold resistant.
You are sleep resistant.
You are poison resistant.
You are magic-protected.
You are telepathic.
You are warned.
You have automatic searching.
You are stealthy.
You can teleport.
You have teleport control.
You are protected.
You have polymorph control.
You are very fast.
You have reflection.
Your life will be saved.
You are extremely lucky.
You have extra luck.
Good luck does not time out for you.
You can safely pray.

	24-09-2002 11:19									#16
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...Killed Medusa (forgot to avoid gaze, but fortunately reflected of my amulet
...Murdered Priest of Moloch (is that poor form?)
...Killed Asmodeus, paid off Dispater (regret that later?)
...Killed Juiblex.

Who wants to be next?

	24-09-2002 12:06									#17
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Did anyone detect a hint of arrogance in that last note. It seems Odin did for a barged thru a disenchanter with my Mjollnir and now it's only +5 (very hard to fix that).

In the meantime, killed Baalz and Orcus (phew!).

	24-09-2002 12:26									#18
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quote: The lieutenant hits you with the cockatrice corpse.

Looks like the AI is getting smarter!

quote: You have turned to stone. You are a statue. But wait...

Close call, that one.

	24-09-2002 12:40									#19
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What Combinations of Adversaries are Tougher than their Parts?

I just came across another example:
Master Lich is tougher in a tight hallway when peaceful gray unicorn is in the way and teleport is not allowed.

	24-09-2002 12:49									#20
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Now I've lost most of my fireproofing (have no means of fixing that) and wasted most of my holy water. It shows that, no matter how strong you are, if you play in too much of a hurry. You cannot win this game.

Nethack is such a great game. You guys really should try it as Valkyrie. It is winnable, but never really easy.

	24-09-2002 19:28									#21
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I've never managed to kill Demogorgon. If only "doesn't get deathly ill" were an intrinsic...

	25-09-2002 07:32									#22
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Yes,
That deathly illness takes a lot of getting used to.
Juiblex took me a long time to work out.

	25-09-2002 12:00									#23
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Now I've been killed 3 times in total (have two life savers left)

I've killed Asmodeus,
Found the bottom level
Found (but not killed) the Wizard.
Genocided all mind flayers and liches

But I cannot find Vlad the Impaler.
Maybe they've done away with him in this version of Nethack? Does anybody have any clues?

Once I find him, the Wizard will be in trouble:
Jack the Lady St:18/** Dx:24 Co:18 In:18 Wi:23 Ch:11 Neutral
Dlvl:29 $:0 HP:520(520) Pw:203(203) AC:-34 Xp:30/100371379 T:96534

	25-09-2002 20:22									#24
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In the last version that I played (which was a pretty recent version), Vlad couldn't be found by just heading down in Gehennom. He now lives at the top of a small 3 or 4 floor castle that rises off of one of Gehennom's levels, so you need to look around for an "up" staircase or ladder that doesn't just take you up to the next level of Gehennom. The levels of Vlad's tower are quite small, so that'll be a dead giveaway.

	25-09-2002 20:28									#25
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Now I remember what Nethack enemy combo caused me so much trouble: Medusa plus a Lich (maybe a Master Lich or Arch-Lich, I forget). I had a towel over my face so that Medusa couldn't stone me (I was telepathic so I could still tell where she was), but Medusa fled down the stairs. I chased her, and found a Lich waiting down there. Well, I finished off Medusa, but while I was doing so the Lich kept throwing curses at me. Medusa went down with only a few more hits, after which I took out the Lich. However, I then discovered that my towel couldn't be removed, since it had been cursed by the Lich. I didn't have any "remove curse" scrolls on me, and even though I had empty parchment and a magic marker I couldn't write any new "remove curse" scrolls (since I was blind). I couldn't dip my towel in holy water, either, because I was wearing it. That really sucked.

	26-09-2002 04:20									#26
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quote: I didn't have any "remove curse" scrolls on me, and even though I had empty parchment and a magic marker I couldn't write any new "remove curse" scrolls (since I was blind). I couldn't dip my towel in holy water, either, because I was wearing it. That really sucked.

You truly couldn't dip?
That really does suck.
You wouldn't be able to read a remove curse scroll either.
I'm beginning to think that leaving nymphs behind on some levels is smart for situations like that (they steal items like that from you).
The arch-liches and master-liches have easily been the toughest monsters in this game for me, especially on the levels where they can teleport but nobody else can.
(I get "a mysterious force prevents you from teleporting")
Let me know if you want me to PM you a hint that lets you counter deathly sick. You may prefer to work it out for yourself, but I never could.

	26-09-2002 12:59									#27
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Well, Mr Loin, I haven't found any Demogorgon yet and I am about to head up to the planes with the Amulet.
Thankyou for your help with Vlad. It turned out that I had left a box covering those up stairs so that was making them hard to find.
I only found them by cheating. I saved my game many times and reloaded then travelled to each Gehennom level, one at a time and read a scroll of forgetting, then a blessed scroll of magic mapping on each level. This makes you forget where the box (or whatever) is, then maps any up-stairs on that level, so it revealed the stairs for me.

Then I returned to my loaded game with an uncanny ability to find those stairs.

Enough for today. That bottom level was very tough this time.

	26-09-2002 18:50									#28
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IIRC, I finally got out of my cursed towel predicament by dropping everything remotely flammable and having some pyrolisks repeatedly set fire to me until the towel was destroyed. In the future I'll be taking out the lich before I finish off Medusa.

	27-09-2002 04:20									#29
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quote: IIRC, I finally got out of my cursed towel predicament by dropping everything remotely flammable and having some pyrolisks repeatedly set fire to me until the towel was destroyed.

That sounds like fun
Why wouldn't you want to do that again?

	27-09-2002 04:49									#30
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Just ran into some trouble (note Wizard next to me).

Attachment: problems.jpg
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