20-09-2002 15:41									#1
	Help needed - no iron or gunpowder! Inflate your Upload Space

Monarch, huge map, raging, 8 civs, random everything else.

I am the CHinese, leading in population. Sitting on a huge peninsula connected to a large continent by a narrow strip of mountains, which I have blocked with a couple of cities.

I have pretty good land, lots of rivers, grass and hills, with a couple of luxuries. I have a lot of ice north of me, which I am slowly colonising in case any oil turns up.

I have about 21 cities, of which 6 are at size 12 and the most of the rest are going that way rapidly.

But I have no iron or gunpowder.

I am a couple of techs behind everybody, (Just discovered Republic / Feudalism / Theology) but doing OK on wonders. Got HG, Pyramids, Sistine, Sun Tzu.

The French are the other side of the mountains, and they are quite big, and have iron and probably gunpowder. Didnt check last night before I switched off.

Also on my continent, but a long way from me, are the Greeks, who declared war on me but have not showed up, and the English. The Romans are on a large island some distance away from me, and also declared war, but have just got some triremes wandering around at the moment.

Any thoughts on what to do. Unless "we discover a new source of gunpowder", I am whacked for war for some considerable time. How do I go about winning by other means (I have turned cultural victory off). Which is my most likely route, or am I doomed.

If I can trade for gunpowder, is it worth it, or will the deal get cancelled after 20 turns? How much should I pay (I have not done much resource trading before?

Suggestions welcome

	20-09-2002 17:00									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Panic not. Pikes and longbows. Build the economy. Trade if it's reasonable. Tech more important for you than gunpowder, at least until cavs. You should win the end game if you get there in one piece. Iron may be a problem as RR become available, but you can get by until then.

	20-09-2002 17:15									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ouch. That's exactly what I try to do to the AI...

It would definitely be worthwhile trading for saltpeter. I'd be willing to trade 2 luxs or a tech, how much gpt depends on your economy.

If you can't trade:
Try to stay at peace as much as you can during the middle ages and go for nationalism as your first Industrial tech.
Build up a defense of some sort against sea invasion, but that depends on your coastline
If you manage to get a tech lead, you can probably keep them happy with you by selling techs for less than what they're willing to pay.


Other than that, try to build a strong production and research economy to go for the SS win.

jshelr: No iron = No Pikes

	20-09-2002 17:22									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A Longbowman + a Pikeman would be some kind of a slow Knight with double upkeep and no retreat, but... unfortunately do Pikemen also require iron.

If you can, try to send some Spearmen and Archers/Longbowmen to fool and divert eventually attacking Greeks and make peace ASAP. Concentrate on building up your empire. Your industrious workers and city improvements are the key. Do you already have a FP? If not, it's about time. Try to sell luxuries to others. Settle the tundra ASAP or the AI will. Trust me, they will find your oil, so hurry up!

At your place, I would either stay peaceful and go for a diplomatic victory, or warmonger later when you have Infantry/Artillery, or even Tanks.

	20-09-2002 18:29									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

No iron = no pikes.

LoL -- shows how much time I spend on defense I guess!!

	20-09-2002 23:40									#6
	Remove this text

Thanks for the tips (I'm still searching the build list for pikemen!) Will be patient.

	21-09-2002 00:13									#7
	Tired of ads?

FH: You can't build pikemen once you have no iron. You won't find them in the list.

	21-09-2002 00:16									#8
	Suffering from ads?

Just had a game like that.. no iron, no horses, no saltpeter on my continent (decent sized one too). Wiped out the other civs using mostly lots of archers (they didn't have iron either) and managed to buy some iron finishing off the Babylonians with swordsmen... then everything was quiet, very quiet, for hundreds of years.

If you manage to remove the other civs from your territory you know you'll be safe, as the AI is incapable of invading anything. You can go for a builder/researcher strategy, and if you feel like conquering, you could always (well, often) buy horses and iron/saltpeter. You're NOT screwed just because you start on a bad continent.

Oh, I lost that game on culture... still pretty happy about my performance

	21-09-2002 17:39									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: [SIZE=1]or warmonger later when you have Infantry/Artillery, or even Tanks.

That's exactly what you have to do. Maybe it's a sorry for you, but you can't have MedievalWarfare. Wait for Rifleman.
So, put everthing you can in to resaerch as quick as possible, so you fast done with the MiddleAges and you can start with the IndustrialAges. There's a whole new kind of warfare to discover there, without Iron and Salpeter.

But by the time you get to the IndustrialAge, make sure you DO have Iron then, or RailRoads will become a very huge probleme.....

	22-09-2002 01:14									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You have 2 choices if you want to be a cheap guy:

1- Buy Iron, this will allow you to build your Chinese UU (and upgrade charriots and horsemen to riders) and invade some poor sucker that might have gunpowder. It will also allow you to build pikemen and upgrade spearmen to pikemen. Have you had your Golden Age yet?

- Buy Gunpowder, this will allow you to build musketeers, a city with 4 veteran fortified musketeers can be difficult to capture for knights and longbows (current era's attack unit) especially if you have siege units in the city, remember to bombard them as the station next to your city, then they will get autobombarded again in their turn when they assault the city.

Man, you're fine, I've had it worse: I've been 1 on 1 (being the last remaining 2 civs) and the only other civ, the last one, was the single largest continent (ocupying all of it) and it had ALL the Rubber. I managed trough severe bombing runs and massive artillery shelling combined with massive cavalries until I capped some rubber and upgraded riflemen and built tanks.

	22-09-2002 16:55									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by XOR You have 2 choices if you want to be a cheap guy: 1- Buy Iron, this will allow you to build your Chinese UU (and upgrade charriots and horsemen to riders) and invade some poor sucker that might have gunpowder. It will also allow you to build pikemen and upgrade spearmen to pikemen. Have you had your Golden Age yet? - Buy Gunpowder, this will allow you to build musketeers, a city with 4 veteran fortified musketeers can be difficult to capture for knights and longbows (current era's attack unit) especially if you have siege units in the city, remember to bombard them as the station next to your city, then they will get autobombarded again in their turn when they assault the city.

Great plan, yes, this is what you have to do! Buy it! Maybe it's gonna be expensive, but you can get that back with conquering.

	22-09-2002 19:37									#12
	Update Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Managed to trade iron for 20 glorious turns, and built as many Riders as I could, as well as upgrading to Pikemen.

Unfortunately, as my near negihbours are the French with monsieur le Musket, I am not hopeful of making much progress with 20 Riders and Longbowmen.

Nobody will trade Iron or gunpowder anymore.

I am narrowing the tech deficit, am in Democracy, have had my GA. when I finished last night I was 2 techs away from the modern age but I see Babylon has some Riflemen already.

If I dont need iron or saltpetre for tanks etc, I should be able to hold on long enough (assuming I find oil, rubber etc!!)

Bye for now

	23-09-2002 18:04									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I've had similar situations.

The key behind Longbowmen is ... numbers.

MASS numbers to be more exact.

They can take out Musketmen and Musketeers. Heck, If you have enough of them, they can take out riflemen. The key is to be prepared to lose > 1 (like 2 or 3) to take out 1 defender.

Since the longbowmen are comparatively cheaper than the riflemen/musketmen(teers), you shouldn't have much problem going on the offensive. Of course playing Monarch, you're already handicapped, so you might only wind up breaking even.

A warning however, is that if you see Riflemen, that means the AI can mobilize. You could be soon swamped, so I'd only try the longbowmen attack if you are able to get enough cities in 1 turn to cripple (at least impede) the economy of the AI you're attacking.

	23-09-2002 20:41									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The thing is, if you intend to go to war you must be willing to create 1 or 2 stacks of 16+ units and keep building them at faster speed than you lose them. You also have to know that you need to try to capture all their cities as fast as possible before they start flipping.

BTW, I dont sign peace treaties anymore unless war weariness forces me to. I used to sign peace in exchange for luxuries, but now you cant, so I dont, I get no other option but to conquer further to get my luxuries. Bah!

	23-09-2002 21:04									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

yeah, sometimes you just gotta wait for riflemen.

regarding the other civs who won't trade resources anymore - do you have the "always renegotiate deals" option checked??? this is REEEEEAAALLY useful. when the deal expires, the AI will pop up to renegotiate with you. this means that you immediately buy the resource again, and the AI doesn't have the chance to sell to someone else. it's also good for those of us who forget what we're trading. another great thing about it is this - i was buying wines form the french at 24 per turn. joan popped up and asked me if i wanted to continue. i could have said "yes, sounds good to me" or whatever, but instead i hit "i would like to propose a deal." STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. i thought maybe i could squeeze more out of her, and i wanted to talk techs. instead, the screen chaged to "they would never accept such a deal!!!!!" i could have kept paying 24 per turn for the wine, but instead i ended up paying a lot more. it wasn't that big a deal since i was making a lot of money and gave her a lump sum, but still.

	24-09-2002 13:16									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Raghnall The key behind Longbowmen is ... numbers. They can take out Musketmen and Musketeers. Heck, If you have enough of them, they can take out riflemen. The key is to be prepared to lose > 1 (like 2 or 3) to take out 1 defender.

Don't you think it's the right time to utilize catapult ? Instead of letting your Longbowman die attacking healthy musketeer, you could bombard them before sending your Longbowman. Besides, your catapult will also augment your defender when attacked.

I won't care about destroying city improvement, since my goal is to take the resource in the city.

	24-09-2002 18:09									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

All right: no buying, but attacking with MASSES of Longbowmen AND Catapults.

	25-09-2002 04:26									#18
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by CivilopediaCity All right: no buying, but attacking with MASSES of Longbowmen AND Catapults.

Your masses of longbowmen and catapults will have a defense strenght of 1. Your best defense unit is the spearman and has 2. Your attack will be received with musketmen and knights, and the counterattack against your cities will come with knights and they will bust your spearmen very easily.

Not good idea, dont folow his advice.

	25-09-2002 08:29									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by CivilopediaCity All right: no buying, but attacking with MASSES of Longbowmen AND Catapults.

Don't forget to bring enough defender! Catapult will only augment defense with its autobombard which isn't lethal. The attacker will eventually fight with your defender.

Also try to move your force behind rough terrain cover, therefor enemy's knight will be forced to stop near you before attacking. They're vulnerable to bombardment that way.

With ratio of 1 attacking knight (70 shield) versus 3 catapult + 1 spearmen (80 shield) fortified on and behind rough terrain, the knight will recieve 6 salvo of bombardment before it meet our spearmen.

Also watch your coast in case your enemy smuggle their unit behind you.

	25-09-2002 18:03									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

More good tips, but more bad news - No Coal! Also, some minor cities that I built to try and culture flip some invading cities, have themselves been culture flipped. Aargh.

	26-09-2002 00:21									#21
	Put an end to popups!

And let the fun begin.

	26-09-2002 02:15									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

ANQ (another Dumb question)...

I have been in the position of not having iron or coal. My biggest concern was around not building railroads. I had the thought in one game that, since I had iron, that once I had oil I could build RRs. That was NOT true!

The question... in the absence of coal, is there some point in time where I will be able to build RRs?

Carlos

	26-09-2002 05:32									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In a word no. You will need to trade or take any missing resources. They have to be in your strategic box to allow contruction according to the doc.

	26-09-2002 12:34									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by XOR Your masses of longbowmen and catapults will have a defense strenght of 1. Your best defense unit is the spearman and has 2. Your attack will be received with musketmen and knights, and the counterattack against your cities will come with knights and they will bust your spearmen very easily. Not good idea, dont folow his advice.

Good critical! But I he stays in the environment of Hills and Mountains and Forests the Units will be OK with a guardian like a Spearman.

	26-09-2002 12:35									#25
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Fergus Horkan More good tips, but more bad news - No Coal! Also, some minor cities that I built to try and culture flip some invading cities, have themselves been culture flipped. Aargh.

Stop the Game!

	26-09-2002 13:18									#26
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by CivilopediaCity Stop the Game!

Best advice so far! I tried a couple of sneak attacks on riflemen with my riders, and had very little success. I could not be bothered to try and build 100 longbowmen and watch them get mowed by cavalry! So chalk another one up for the AI.

	26-09-2002 17:22									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Fergus Horkan Best advice so far! I tried a couple of sneak attacks on riflemen with my riders, and had very little success. I could not be bothered to try and build 100 longbowmen and watch them get mowed by cavalry! So chalk another one up for the AI.

Hey, could you post your save? I think it'd be an interesting challenge… I'd like to see how I fare in the situation I try to put the AI in. I'm sure we'll be running into it in PTW.

	26-09-2002 18:51									#28
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by jabberwockysr Hey, could you post your save?

I'll try, but two questions:

- which save do you want (I doubt if I have the 4000BC file), but I could post either my earliest or latest saves

- how do I do it?

Fergus

	26-09-2002 19:21									#29
	Got spare money?

If you could zip it, then in the reply screen click on Browse…, then you should be able to select the file from wherever it is stored.

I'd rather a file from around when you discovered you had no gunpowder, but any time after that would be good.

I think this would be a good addition to the AU…

	28-09-2002 12:41									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

AU?